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Lawende is a red herring.

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  • #61
    Joseph Lawende: I reside at No. 45, Norfolk-road, Dalston, and am a commercial traveller. On the night of Sept. 29, I was at the Imperial Club, Duke-street, together with Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. It was raining, and we sat in the club till half-past one o'clock, when we left. I observed a man and woman together at the corner of Church-passage, Duke-street, leading to Mitre-square.
    The Coroner: Were they talking? - The woman was standing with her face towards the man, and I only saw her back. She had one hand on his breast. He was the taller. She had on a black jacket and bonnet. I have seen the articles at the police-station, and believe them to be those the deceased was wearing.
    [Coroner] What sort of man was this? - He had on a cloth cap with a peak of the same.
    Mr. Crawford: Unless the jury wish it, I do not think further particulars should be given as to the appearance of this man.
    The Foreman: The jury do not desire it.
    Mr. Crawford (to witness): You have given a description of the man to the police? - Yes.
    [Coroner] Would you know him again? - I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me. I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman.
    [Coroner] Did you overhear anything that either said? - No.
    [Coroner] Did either appear in an angry mood? - No.
    [Coroner] Did anything about their movements attract your attention? - No. The man looked rather rough and shabby.
    [Coroner] When the woman placed her hand on the man's breast, did she do it as if to push him away? - No; it was done very quietly.
    [Coroner] You were not curious enough to look back and see where they went. - No.
    Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. We got up to leave at half-past one on Sunday morning, and came out three or four minutes later. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church-passage, but I did not take any notice of them. I passed on, thinking they were up to no good at so late an hour.
    [Coroner] What height was the man? - I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high. I cannot give any further description of them. I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together.
    By the Jury: The point in the passage where the man and woman were standing was not well lighted. On the contrary, I think it was badly lighted then, but the light is much better now.
    By Mr. Crawford: Nothing in what I saw excited my suspicion as to the intentions of the man. I did not hear a word that he uttered to the woman.
    [Coroner] Your fear was rather about yourself? - Not exactly. (Laughter.)
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #62
      Doesn’t sound like they were huddled against the wall sheltering as she was in front of the man.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

      Comment


      • #63
        Surely Lawende, Levy and Harris waited for it to stop raining before they left the club? Hence the few minutes between getting up to leave and actually going outside.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
          Surely Lawende, Levy and Harris waited for it to stop raining before they left the club? Hence the few minutes between getting up to leave and actually going outside.
          Reckon that's the general consensus.

          As her right hand is visible on his chest as the three approach,why is there no mention of a large apron?
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #65
            In the Standard, Levy was reported to have added..
            "There is a better light at the club now than there used to be, and with the aid of the lamp a few yards off I could distinguish almost anybody. On the night in question, however, there was not sufficient light to enable me to distinguish the colour of the dress which the woman was wearing."

            Likely no point in saying she wore an apron when most women did, and when an apron does nothing to distinguish the woman, like a hat or jacket would.
            No mention of boots either but I'll bet she wasn't in bare feet.
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              Surely Lawende, Levy and Harris waited for it to stop raining before they left the club? Hence the few minutes between getting up to leave and actually going outside.
              As reported in the Daily News, Lawende's words imply that.

              "We could not get home because it was raining. At half past one we left to go out, and left the house about five minutes later."
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                Hi Abby,

                But very Ripperological.

                Stay well.

                Simon
                very true. this sentence has sentimental meaning for me. when i was little my dad would always make fun of it. if something was done poorly or wrong hed say.. it was a dark and stormy night LOL! if it was raining at night hes say it. its like that movie Plan Nine from Outer Space. or a really ugly bulldog. they are so bad theyre cute.

                "(for it is in London that our scene lies)". hahaha. so bad. like a fourth grade play.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                  In the Standard, Levy was reported to have added..
                  "There is a better light at the club now than there used to be, and with the aid of the lamp a few yards off I could distinguish almost anybody. On the night in question, however, there was not sufficient light to enable me to distinguish the colour of the dress which the woman was wearing."

                  Likely no point in saying she wore an apron when most women did, and when an apron does nothing to distinguish the woman, like a hat or jacket would.
                  No mention of boots either but I'll bet she wasn't in bare feet.
                  The apron and GSG are significant in this case.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by DJA View Post

                    The apron and GSG are significant in this case.
                    yup-so is a peaked cap
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by DJA View Post

                      The apron and GSG are significant in this case.
                      That is true, but neither Lawende nor Levy knew the apron would be of any significance, so they had no reason to take notice if she wore one.

                      We see plenty of contemporary photo's of low-class women walking or standing around the street's or in doorways, and most of them wear an apron.
                      Besides, the witnesses only saw her from the back, and in poor light, and as most aprons only cover the front then it might not be obvious the woman was wearing one.
                      I wasn't disagreeing with you, in fact it would be in my interest to just agree as I doubt the woman was Eddowes, but in all fairness I don't think it is a worthy point for the reason's just given.

                      Once again, I forgot the smiley face
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        We see plenty of contemporary photo's of low-class women walking or standing around the street's or in doorways, and most of them wear an apron.
                        I'm also thinking that the peaked-cap angle has been seriously overplayed. True, Jack London and his 'Abyss' came along a few years later, but there are contemporaneous photos showing the same thing: every third bloke has one.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	peaked cap.JPG Views:	0 Size:	82.5 KB ID:	741880


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                        • #72
                          I'm also thinking that the peaked-cap angle has been seriously overplayed.

                          I agree. You might as well say the suspect was wearing shoes.

                          c.d.

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                          • #73
                            ROFL ..... Pommie cricket team.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                              I'm also thinking that the peaked-cap angle has been seriously overplayed.

                              I agree. You might as well say the suspect was wearing shoes.

                              c.d.
                              Ruling out John Kelly
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                                I'm also thinking that the peaked-cap angle has been seriously overplayed.

                                I agree. You might as well say the suspect was wearing shoes.

                                c.d.
                                hi cd and RJ
                                yeah I guess abberline was such an idiot thinking that the peaked cap was of significance in helping ID a possible suspect.

                                I think he would know a little better than you two lol. and CD if your going to try and be a smart ass, at least be right.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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