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  • Lawende is a red herring.

    I cannot believe that JtR did what he did to Catherine Eddowes between 01.35 and 01.45 including make his escape. I think it's pretty sure Lawende saw a different pair and Eddowes was already dead when he left the club. The missing half hour of Eddowes could well be used up by her murder. I just don't believe 10 minutes, if that, was time enough.

  • #2
    Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
    I cannot believe that JtR did what he did to Catherine Eddowes between 01.35 and 01.45 including make his escape. I think it's pretty sure Lawende saw a different pair and Eddowes was already dead when he left the club. The missing half hour of Eddowes could well be used up by her murder. I just don't believe 10 minutes, if that, was time enough.
    Don't know, Henry Sutton was adept with a knife, and by recognition of his peers, he could work by feel and was an expert in the abdomen. No bother.

    I must say though, I've always liked the idea of the PC catching Jack "ripperus interruptus" and befouling his kecks before fetching an old copper at Kearly and Tonge. Not proved, at all, in any way, not a pet theory or the basis for any other nonsense by extension. But a good story. Great fodder for fiction. Or the seaside home ID. Or both.

    God knows. Someone did it. And got away with it.

    It's like all the scenes though, MJK excepted, such narrow time windows. How did he do it? How wasn't he caught? Opens the door for coach and horses nonsense.
    Thems the Vagaries.....

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    • #3
      Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
      I cannot believe that JtR did what he did to Catherine Eddowes between 01.35 and 01.45 including make his escape. I think it's pretty sure Lawende saw a different pair and Eddowes was already dead when he left the club. The missing half hour of Eddowes could well be used up by her murder. I just don't believe 10 minutes, if that, was time enough.
      So at 1.30 Mitre Square is corpse-free. Four or five minutes later three men in an otherwise deserted street see a man and a woman (who appears to resemble Eddowes) at the opening of Church Passage, having an early morning chat. Ten minutes later Eddowes is discovered dead a few yards away. So we would have to accept that either these two then walked away together (leaving us to ask why they’d stopped there for a chat in the first place?) Or that they went there separate ways, then another woman (the real Catherine as opposed to a lookalike) entered Mitre Square with an entirely different man (or that she bumped into him as they were both crossing the square)
      Or that while lookalike Eddowes is chatting to a man the real Eddowes and Jack either enter the square together via one of the other two ways or that they just bump into each other there.

      The simplest scenario is surely the likeliest here. Unless we enter corpse carrying fantasies then what’s left?
      Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 09-12-2020, 04:41 PM.
      Regards

      Herlock




      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
        I cannot believe that JtR did what he did to Catherine Eddowes between 01.35 and 01.45 including make his escape. I think it's pretty sure Lawende saw a different pair and Eddowes was already dead when he left the club. The missing half hour of Eddowes could well be used up by her murder. I just don't believe 10 minutes, if that, was time enough.
        Yep.

        As there was no blood spray,Eddowes had been strangled.
        That cut the time frame even more, if Lawende saw them.
        As previously mentioned,the two eye "cuts" would have required light and a scalpel.

        There was no mention of her being wet from the rain ..... or vice versa.

        Now where could she have been?

        Click image for larger version

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        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          So at 1.30 Mitre Square is corpse-free. Four or five minutes later three men in an otherwise deserted street see a man and a woman (who appears to resemble Eddowes) at the opening of Church Passage, having an early morning chat. Ten minutes later Eddowes is discovered dead a few yards away. So we would have to accept that either these two then walked away together (leaving us to ask why they’d stopped there for a chat in the first place?) Or that they went there separate ways, then another woman (the real Catherine as opposed to a lookalike) entered Mitre Square with an entirely different man (or that she bumped into him as they were both crossing the square)
          Or that while lookalike Eddowes is chatting to a man the real Eddowes and Jack either enter the square together via one of the other two ways or that they just bump into each other there.

          The simplest scenario is surely the likeliest here. Unless we enter corpse carrying fantasies then what’s left?

          Not quite Herlock, going on Miakaals OP, he's suggesting Kate was long dead. IE, at half one it wasn't corpse free. She was there, and hence Lawende was a "red herring". Not corpse carrying shenanigans, just plain old discovered.
          Last edited by Al Bundy's Eyes; 09-12-2020, 05:00 PM. Reason: No edit, just Ha Ha for the oops,
          Thems the Vagaries.....

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          • #6
            Two doctors at the scene - Sequeira and Brown - reckoned on the death taking place after 1:30am based on their own arrivals rather than explicit physical evidence alone, so it's not entirely clear if they were being influenced by PC Watkin's testimony that there was no body there at 1:30am when he previous passed round Mitre Square.

            It's been a wonder of mine for a while whether PC Watkin missed Catherine Eddowes's body when he went round Mitre Square around 1:30am but saw her at 1:44am as the door at Kearly & Tonge had been opened and so shed some light into the Square. He could honestly say he saw nothing at 1:30am but he wouldn't be able to account for not knowing whether her body was there or not earlier. If she was there but he didn't see her then that's bad in terms of his own vigilance on duty, but he can't know for absolutely sure she wasn't there as it was dark. Better then, for his standing, to simply say she definitely wasn't there than say he wasn't sure.

            When Sequeria talks of there being sufficient light to, 'perpetrate the deed' despite it being the darkest part of the Square, was he seeing it while the door at Kearly & Tonge was still open? The door may have still been wide open after PC Watkin knocked for assistance 10 minutes earlier.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              The simplest scenario is surely the likeliest here.
              What scenario is that?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DJA View Post
                There was no mention of her being wet from the rain ..... or vice versa.

                Now where could she have been?
                Not in the house behind which she was murdered?

                What about across the street at no. 29 Mitre Street?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post


                  Not quite Herlock, going on Miakaals OP, he's suggesting Kate was long dead. IE, at half one it wasn't corpse free. She was there, and hence Lawende was a "red herring". Not corpse carrying shenanigans, just plain old discovered.
                  Fair point Al and my apologies to Miakaal for misreading his post. Is it being suggested though that Watkins was mistaken or lying? He said that “At half past one...No one could have been in any portion of the Square without my seeing.”

                  Could he have missed her? Sounds a bit like John Richardson at Hanbury Street.
                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                  “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                  “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                  “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                  “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                    What scenario is that?
                    That she was killed where she was found but Miakaal wasnt suggesting otherwise.
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It could well be the case that Watkins missed her at 01.30. We have to assume he was being totally honest, but when you think on it, he was a City cop and had absolutely no reason to believe he was about to find another victim that morning. He may well have chatted too long to a crony then shortcutted through a building or an ally. Or perhaps just gave a quick look as he passed through the square. To admit dereliction during such an important event would have him vilified in the Press and with his superiors. I'm not saying this is how it happened but it makes sense.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DJA View Post

                        Yep.

                        As there was no blood spray,Eddowes had been strangled.
                        That cut the time frame even more, if Lawende saw them.
                        As previously mentioned,the two eye "cuts" would have required light and a scalpel.

                        There was no mention of her being wet from the rain ..... or vice versa.

                        Now where could she have been?

                        Click image for larger version

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ID:	741705
                        I've always raised eyebrow with the "how much light" thing.
                        How dark is to dark?
                        I cant amagin it was like working with your eyes closed kind of dark.
                        In reality, a body is quite small close up,even a dark silhouette would be enough.

                        what I find more puzzling is that why would a policeman think a rag in the dark dumped in a doorway suspicious?..and red blood doesn't show out in the dark, so it wouldn't have stood out as a blood soaked rag.
                        just saying!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
                          It could well be the case that Watkins missed her at 01.30. We have to assume he was being totally honest, but when you think on it, he was a City cop and had absolutely no reason to believe he was about to find another victim that morning. He may well have chatted too long to a crony then shortcutted through a building or an ally. Or perhaps just gave a quick look as he passed through the square. To admit dereliction during such an important event would have him vilified in the Press and with his superiors. I'm not saying this is how it happened but it makes sense.
                          It’s not impossible that he might have had a briefer look than he actually did and missed her in the shadows in the corner. I tend to think that Lawende and the other two probably saw her but it can’t be a certainty of course.
                          Regards

                          Herlock




                          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
                            It could well be the case that Watkins missed her at 01.30. We have to assume he was being totally honest, but when you think on it, he was a City cop and had absolutely no reason to believe he was about to find another victim that morning. He may well have chatted too long to a crony then shortcutted through a building or an ally. Or perhaps just gave a quick look as he passed through the square. To admit dereliction during such an important event would have him vilified in the Press and with his superiors. I'm not saying this is how it happened but it makes sense.
                            We have Watkins' beat and maps of it.
                            Name a short cut he could have taken.

                            Perhaps being on the force for 17 years,he did exactly as he testified to at Eddowes' Inquest.

                            Do you realise how close the Nichols and Chapman murders were to Mitre Square?
                            The area was on alert,with detectives on watch quite close by.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by spyglass View Post

                              I've always raised eyebrow with the "how much light" thing.
                              How dark is to dark?
                              I cant amagin it was like working with your eyes closed kind of dark.
                              In reality, a body is quite small close up,even a dark silhouette would be enough.

                              what I find more puzzling is that why would a policeman think a rag in the dark dumped in a doorway suspicious?..and red blood doesn't show out in the dark, so it wouldn't have stood out as a blood soaked rag.
                              just saying!
                              Up here in the Otway Ranges where we get a good view of the Milky Way,moonlight is usually sufficient for walking around.

                              When it's dark,it's dark.
                              Cloud cover completely blocks out all light.

                              A rag in a doorway would attract attention primarily as a tripping danger.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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