Chapman’s death.

[Jon Guy]

There can be no arguments, if Phillips was right that he saw signs of onset Rigor, then he has to be believed, and she was killed much earlier, which if it was the same killer is in line with the TOD of the other victims.

Agreed. If the limbs were begining to stiffen when Phillips saw the body, we are looking at at least 2hrs since she died.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok perhaps this is how it went down , Chandler pulls john Richardson aside on the morning of the murder. He interviews John Richardson at about 6:45 that morning and was told "he had been to the house that morning about a quarter to five. He said he came to the back door and looked down to the cellar, to see if all was right, and then went away to his work. Chandler then informs Richo ''hey John ive just talked to Dr Phillips he said that Chapmans been dead for up to 2 hours about 4/4.30, you know what that means john dont you.....? yer you were just inches away from the body and you didn't even know it'' john give a shrugs of the shoulders and gives a nod . That is the end of that . Now two days later john then makes his statement about sitting on the step to cut his boot , why on earth would he need then to say that ?

''The fact that he originally didn’t mention the knife and the shoe to Chandler doesn’t affect his Inquest testimony''

it affects it a lot i believe.

Firstly Fish I’d say that there’s no record from Chandler of him speaking to Richardson twice. Chandler just said that Richardson didn’t say anything about mending his shoe when he’d spoken to him. Your point actual makes my point. It would have been no skin off Richardson’s nose if he’d been told that there must have been a body there as he could have just said - well I just partially opened the door, looked right to check that the cellar doors were ok then I went to work. The door would have blocked my view of the body. What problem would that have presented to Richardson? He was checked and wasn’t being treated as a suspect after all.

So why was he so adamant that he’d sat on the step and couldn’t possibly have missed a mutilated corpse? So adamant that he was prepared to place himself in the yard, in possession of a knife, alone with a mutilated corpse.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There can be no arguments, if Phillips was right that he saw signs of onset Rigor, then he has to be believed, and she was killed much earlier, which if it was the same killer is in line with the TOD of the other victims.

Witness testimony throughout these murders has now been proven to unreliable, and unsafe, that still applies to this case.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What I can’t understand is if Phillips TOD estimate was so concrete, so obviously correct, why over the ensuing years have people still considered the possibility that he might have been wrong? Why don’t we have a Forensic medical expert saying that this is beyond argument?

[Joshua Rogan]

As the coroner said to Dr Phillips;

"The Coroner - That is your opinion. I can quite imagine that it is correct, but after all it is only opinion, and it may be rebutted. In the opinions of other medical men we often see this"

[Jon Guy]

What I can’t understand is if Phillips TOD estimate was so concrete, so obviously correct, why over the ensuing years have people still considered the possibility that he might have been wrong?

Cadosch, HS, Cadosch !!

Why don’t we have a Forensic medical expert saying that this is beyond argument?

Well, I just googled how long it takes for rigor to set in, and it came back as two to six hours!!
I was looking to see if RM would be setting in after an hour, but that wasn`t there.

[Sam Flynn]

Rigor can start more quickly in cases of traumatic injury, such as in cut throat deaths, and in malnourished or chronically ill people.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve also seen it stated that rigor can set in after an hour (in the circumstances that Sam has mentioned. None of which Phillips would have been aware of at the time). Phillips could have checked Annie’s body an hour and 10 or even 15 minutes after her death.

[Ginger]

But Ginger the overwhelming point is surely the fact that Richardson himself, after seeing the body in situ, was absolutely adamant that he couldn’t have missed it. If he’d sat facing right, with the door against the left side of his back, how could he not have been aware that there was an area behind the door that was out of sight to him and where a body might have remained hidden?

He had been at work, probably having a normal morning, getting stuff done and chatting with his mates, etc., when he got the word that an as-yet unidentified woman had been killed and mutilated in the back yard of his mother's house. He was probably not in the most analytical of moods when he arrived. Additionally, recall that his earlier visit had been related to his mother's wellbeing (the safety of her workshop and tools). While I think that he sincerely and logically believed that he could not possibly have overlooked a corpse so close to him (if it were there, of which, as I've said, I'm unconvinced), I think it's also quite likely that emotion played a role in his initial judgement. A murderer operating in mom's back yard is by any reasonable standard a threat to her safety, and to have admitted to himself that he may have missed such a thing was IMHO likely to have been emotionally threatening to him.

[Fisherman]

Rigor can start more quickly in cases of traumatic injury, such as in cut throat deaths, and in malnourished or chronically ill people.

Are you really going to try that one again...? You yourself provided us with the material that forms the foundation for these claims, and it was ALSO said in there that for example asphyxiation and large bloodloss SLOWS DOWN rigor! Moreover, the minimal time described for a rigor onset in that source was three hours in temperate climate!
Why are you cherrypicking parts from the material, leaving out all-important qualifiers? Oh, wait - don´t tell me, I already know...

[Fisherman]

I’ve also seen it stated that rigor can set in after an hour (in the circumstances that Sam has mentioned. None of which Phillips would have been aware of at the time). Phillips could have checked Annie’s body an hour and 10 or even 15 minutes after her death.

In the material Gareth supplies, it is said that rigor can set in after one hour IN TROPICAL CLIMATES! Please, PLEASE don´t twist and turn the sources, it is intellectually corrupt. In temperate climate, rigor can set in after three hours at the earliest, according to Gareths own source. Reasonably, that will happen when it is warm over here, not when it is 8-9 degrees Celsius, like the night when Chapman died.

The game is up. Phillips pointing to commencing rigor within Chapmans body puts her death eons of time before Long and Cadosch and well ahead of Richardsons exploits in the backyard - whatever they amounted to.

We cannot have you two gentlemen cherrypicking parts and suggesting that 29 Hanbury Street was part of tropical Kongo.

I said I would not post out here on account of how some people will never accept the obvious. And that´s okay. But when the material is being grossly misrepresented in the way that happens here, the time has come to point it out!!

[Abby Normal]

just a thought-if phillips was right about observing rigor mortis set in-does this not put Richardson back in the frame as being a suspect in her murder? he would then be there near TOD, no?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In the material Gareth supplies, it is said that rigor can set in after one hour IN TROPICAL CLIMATES! Please, PLEASE don´t twist and turn the sources, it is intellectually corrupt. In temperate climate, rigor can set in after three hours at the earliest, according to Gareths own source. Reasonably, that will happen when it is warm over here, not when it is 8-9 degrees Celsius, like the night when Chapman died.

The game is up. Phillips pointing to commencing rigor within Chapmans body puts her death eons of time before Long and Cadosch and well ahead of Richardsons exploits in the backyard - whatever they amounted to.

We cannot have you two gentlemen cherrypicking parts and suggesting that 29 Hanbury Street was part of tropical Kongo.

I said I would not post out here on account of how some people will never accept the obvious. And that´s okay. But when the material is being grossly misrepresented in the way that happens here, the time has come to point it out!!

There’s nothing obvious about it Fish.

From: Forensic Biology For The Law Enforcement Officer by Charles Grady Wilber,1974

'The stiffening of the body or rigor mortis develops usually within an hour or two hours after death.'

Or,

From: EstimationOf Time Of Death by Ranald Munro and Helen M.C. Munro.

"The time of onset is variable but it is usually considered to appear between 1 and 6 hours (average 2-4 hours) after death.'

[Ginger]

just a thought-if phillips was right about observing rigor mortis set in-does this not put Richardson back in the frame as being a suspect in her murder? he would then be there near TOD, no?

In that very limited sense of having been there near the ToD, yeah.

[Sam Flynn]

PLEASE don´t twist and turn the sources, it is intellectually corrupt

I'm not twisting anything. The sources I've read made no mention of tropical climates.

Plus, Richardson was adamant that he could not have failed to see the body if it had been there at the time. There's no wriggling out of that.

[JeffHamm]

I'm not twisting anything. The sources I've read made no mention of tropical climates.

Plus, Richardson was adamant that he could not have failed to see the body if it had been there at the time. There's no wriggling out of that.

True, but one can try to obscure it with smoke and mirrors.

- Jeff