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Chapman’s death.

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  • As an FYI, I'll note that many chronic and wasting conditions, among them tuberculosis, kidney disease, diabetes, and alcoholism, lower the blood's pH to the point where rigor mortis is hastened, sometimes markedly so. Another factor to take into account, and one of which I doubt Dr. Philips would have known.
    - Ginger

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    • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      Interesting points from Fisherman & Trevor.

      It really flags up John Richardson's testimony. IMO, there's no way he would have missed the body. He was there to check the yard and make sure no one was trespassing. It's impossible that his head was cranked permanently to the right and he failed to spot (or even smell!) the rotting corpse a few feet away from him. There were other witnesses who immediately saw the body from the top of the steps. So, we have a man with a knife who was in the yard and failed to see a corpse that, according to the medico, should have been there.

      I'm surprised he did not become a suspect/POI.
      Why do you state that a persons interest cannot be fixed to one side only? His task was to check the padlock - which was to his right. To his left was a fence. What interest would he take in that, and why? And the door was between him and Chapman and that fence anyway, plus it was still dark.
      As you may remember, Richardson had a cold and that may well have impaired his sense of smell. Plus we don't know how the wind moved in the yard. My dog missed out on a dead rabbit, half a meter from him, on the morning walk today. His smelling sense is around 200 times keener than that of a human - but the wind took the smell away from him. I was VERY relieved that he did not notice it, because once he clamps down on something edible, he is not very given to understanding my points about what he should eat or not.

      Let's not be one-dimensional only, Harry. Yes, it would perhaps be unexpected if he missed Chapman. But no, it would not be impossible at all. (And no, we are not certain that Richardsons story was true from the outset, because he changed it during the procedures).
      Last edited by Fisherman; 08-14-2019, 09:50 AM.

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      • But we have no legitimate reason to suspect him of lying. He had nothing to lose by saying - I just opened the door slightly and looked to the right and checked the cellar doors. The body might have been to my left, behind the door, and I didn’t see it.

        He insisted that he’d sat on the step with the whole of the yard in within his view. This put him in the yard in possession of a knife with a mutilated corpse. What would he have gained by this?
        i dont think its a case of Richardson lying, there could be any number of reasons for his two different accounts ,and we probably will never know , but theres no doubt that he definitely gave ''TWO'' different versions of what he did on that step on that morning .

        I see this thread has now taken a big turn in regards Phillips T.O.D... hmmmmm, i guess i wasn't the only one to believe he was probably right , they certainly make a interesting argument for the good DR.

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        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
          . Yes, but HOW early, Gareth? After 55 minutes, perhaps?
          As most of us here recognise that timings can’t always be taken as exact it’s not impossible that Annie could have been killed as early as 5.20 if Cadosch's time was slightly out. Phillips said that he got there at 6.30. This gives us a gap of an hour and 10 minutes rather than 55. If Phillips watch was 2 or 3 minutes off and he spoke briefly to the police when he arrived we might even be able to add 5 minutes giving us 1 hour 15 minutes?
          Regards

          Herlock






          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post



            As most of us here recognise that timings can’t always be taken as exact it’s not impossible that Annie could have been killed as early as 5.20 if Cadosch's time was slightly out. Phillips said that he got there at 6.30. This gives us a gap of an hour and 10 minutes rather than 55. If Phillips watch was 2 or 3 minutes off and he spoke briefly to the police when he arrived we might even be able to add 5 minutes giving us 1 hour 15 minutes?
            ... which will not suffice anyway, Herlock. Three hour is the minimum according to Gareths link, and cold weather in combination with asphyxiation and bloodloss will add to that time - according to Gareths link, once again. If we had been anywhere near two hours (or preferably three!), it would be another story, but we are not.

            The suggestion that Phillips was wildly out never did fly. Why it was put on the runway in the first place is beyond me, witnesses or no witnesses. Physical realities cannot be denied, they can only be falsely sneaked past à la Baxter - and then we end up in the wrong place altogether.

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            • Overall, what is the problem with acknowledging that Phillips did not make a humongous mistake? We get Chapmans death at a time that dovetails with the other weekday killings, and we get a killer who was consistently working in the small hours. We get a pattern, a logical sequence. What's wrong with that?

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              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                Why do you state that a persons interest cannot be fixed to one side only? His task was to check the padlock - which was to his right. To his left was a fence. What interest would he take in that, and why? And the door was between him and Chapman, plus it was still dark.
                As you may remember, Richardson had a cold and that may well have impaired his sense of smell. Plus we don't know how the wind moved in the yard. My dog missed out on a dead rabbit, half a meter from him, on the morning walk today. His smelling sense is around 200 times keener than that of a human - but the wind took the smell away from him. I was VERY relieved that he did not notice it, because once he clamps down on something edible, he is not very given to understanding my points abut what he should eat or not.

                Let's not be one-dimensional only, Harry. Yes, it would perhaps be unexpected if he missed Chapman. But no, it would not be impossible at all. (And no, we are not certain that his story was true from the outset).
                Richardson checked the yard because prostitutes and alike had been trespassing there. Safe to say he would have his wits about him.

                When I say "impossible" I don't mean literally. Yes, he could have missed the rotting corpse slumped a few feet away, if he was wearing blinkers and oblivious as a rock. Not very likely imo.

                That leaves us with three options: Richardson inexplicably missed the body, he was lying about what happened, or Dr Phillips' TOD is wrong.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ginger View Post
                  As an FYI, I'll note that many chronic and wasting conditions, among them tuberculosis, kidney disease, diabetes, and alcoholism, lower the blood's pH to the point where rigor mortis is hastened, sometimes markedly so. Another factor to take into account, and one of which I doubt Dr. Philips would have known.
                  Yes, although medical science was not as advanced as today, there will have been empirical knowledge a plenty gathered around the factors governing rigor, knowledge that Phillips will have weighed in.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                    Richardson checked the yard because prostitutes and alike had been trespassing there. Safe to say he would have his wits about him.

                    When I say "impossible" I don't mean literally. Yes, he could have missed the rotting corpse slumped a few feet away, if he was wearing blinkers and oblivious as a rock. Not very likely imo.

                    That leaves us with three options: Richardson inexplicably missed the body, he was lying about what happened, or Dr Phillips' TOD is wrong.
                    Was he thinking that a prostitute could hide behind the door, Harry? Is that what you are suggesting?

                    You are now saying that Richardson inexplicably missing the body is an option. But I have provided evidence that the door could have hidden the body from Richardson, we have discussed that he may have had his attention to the right only, we have discussed how the wind governs what we will smell and not, we have spoken about Richardsons cold, we have noted that it was still dark and we know that Richardson changed his story. These are all parameters that can explain him missing out, so the matter would be anything but "inexplicable", I'm afraid. Depending on the factors involved, it could well have been the logical outcome to miss out on the body - even if he DID sit on the stairs the way he claimed.

                    Comment




                    • Did Richardson sit on the top step ? was the door swung open to the left while he was sitting, blocking his view ? was he looking straight ahead when he claimed he could see into the whole yard ?were his feet on the second step blocking his view under the door ? Did he just glance to his right and see the cellar door locked and get up and turn to his right and go back through the door? . In his statement '' if there was a body there i would have surely seen it'' maybe he was just pissed off that he was so close to Chapman and he didn't know it , kinda like ''im so stupid how could i not have seen her right there''

                      I think theres a good case that Annie Chapman was there all the time, whether Richardson sat on the step to cut his boot strap or he stood there facing the right hand side looking at the cellar door lock, then turn back into the hallway, either way its quite possible he just missed her altogether.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                        ... which will not suffice anyway, Herlock. Three hour is the minimum according to Gareths link, and cold weather in combination with asphyxiation and bloodloss will add to that time - according to Gareths link, once again. If we had been anywhere near two hours (or preferably three!), it would be another story, but we are not.

                        The suggestion that Phillips was wildly out never did fly. Why it was put on the runway in the first place is beyond me, witnesses or no witnesses. Physical realities cannot be denied, they can only be falsely sneaked past à la Baxter - and then we end up in the wrong place altogether.
                        I’d say that the chances of Richardson missing Annie’s corpse to be almost non-existent. Close to impossible. Add Cadosch hearing a no and something brushing against the fence in a yard where nothing else happened apart from a woman being murdered and mutilated. Then we have Long.

                        I cant simply dismiss these. Phillips was likely wrong.
                        Regards

                        Herlock






                        "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post


                          Did Richardson sit on the top step ? was the door swung open to the left while he was sitting, blocking his view ? was he looking straight ahead when he claimed he could see into the whole yard ?were his feet on the second step blocking his view under the door ? Did he just glance to his right and see the cellar door locked and get up and turn to his right and go back through the door? . In his statement '' if there was a body there i would have surely seen it'' maybe he was just pissed off that he was so close to Chapman and he didn't know it , kinda like ''im so stupid how could i not have seen her right there''

                          I think theres a good case that Annie Chapman was there all the time, whether Richardson sat on the step to cut his boot strap or he stood there facing the right hand side looking at the cellar door lock, then turn back into the hallway, either way its quite possible he just missed her altogether.
                          He sat on the second step with his feet on the ground. No way he could have missed her. He returned later and actually saw the body so he knew very well if it might have remained unseen. He was absolutely unequivocal about this. A witness couldn’t be more certain. Fish disagrees I know but I’d say that the chances of someone going down those steps to ground level, holding the door open with his left hand then sitting on the step couldn’t fail to have seen Annie. Close too impossible however many diagrams are drawn. She wasn’t there therefore Phillips was wrong.
                          Regards

                          Herlock






                          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            I’d say that the chances of Richardson missing Annie’s corpse to be almost non-existent. Close to impossible. Add Cadosch hearing a no and something brushing against the fence in a yard where nothing else happened apart from a woman being murdered and mutilated. Then we have Long.

                            I cant simply dismiss these. Phillips was likely wrong.
                            But you have said all of that before, Herlock. And I have pointed out that the body could have been obscured from view, I even posted sketches solidifying this, and R J Palmer checked by making an experiment, telling me I was correct. Why not just accept that it is not impossible at all, or even close to it?

                            Yes, we have Long too. And we have Cadosch. Who get the sequence backwards.

                            And then we have Phillips.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              I’d say that the chances of Richardson missing Annie’s corpse to be almost non-existent. Close to impossible.
                              Agreed. Her head was 6-9 inches from the steps, her body stretched out into the yard and, furthermore, she was wearing red and white stripy stockings. Someone sitting on the second step, with his feet planted on the yard itself, couldn't have missed all that in a million years.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                He sat on the second step with his feet on the ground. No way he could have missed her. He returned later and actually saw the body so he knew very well if it might have remained unseen. He was absolutely unequivocal about this. A witness couldn’t be more certain. Fish disagrees I know but I’d say that the chances of someone going down those steps to ground level, holding the door open with his left hand then sitting on the step couldn’t fail to have seen Annie. Close too impossible however many diagrams are drawn. She wasn’t there therefore Phillips was wrong.
                                So we have an open door and a closed mind.

                                Nothing much to do about that.

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