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  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    You throwing smoke Fisherman. The paper and the question it investigates has nothing to do with estimating the ToD by body temperature in even the remotest sense. To use body temperature as an estimator of ToD (and it's not considered a great one even when done properly), you have to use a thermometer and measure the internal core temperature, you simply cannot do it by measuring the surface temperature at the skin. Dr. Phillips did not use a thermometer, and he did not measure the internal body temperature, so he has not taken the measurements required to make any kind of reliable estimate of ToD. It's not enough to detect "colder than me" even, he needs an exact reading as being out by a degree or two changes the estimated time plus or minus 40 minutes to an hour 20, pending on which way he errs. The surface skin temperature is meaningless, no matter how magic his hands are.

    He would also have had to factor in that in this case the body cavity has been cut open, which will greatly change the rate of internal body heat loss (so the fact he felt some warmth under the intestines, if we're going by feel, actually might suggest an earlier time than he estimated - but since we don't know what that temperature was either, we only know she wasn't uniformly cold. But we don't know anything about the temperatures either at the skin or under the intestines, only that one was warmer than the other, and that a body laying outside on a cold day feels cold to the touch - but a living person who comes in out of the cold and who wasn't wearing gloves will also feel cold to the touch because the surface temperature doesn't tell you anything. You can't estimate ToD from those data. And the paper you're looking at has nothing what so ever to do with estimating the actual temperature, it's about detecting differences, but it's actual temperatures that are required, and they have to taken in a specified way, and then other factors (body mass, temperature of the surrounding air, surface area, and other such things) have to be included and then the maths are done. Touching the arm doesn't cut it. And the paper your tossing about is irrelevant for this topic.

    - Jeff
    The paper concerns itself with how close temoperatures hand palpation can tell apart. That is monumentally important here, because it is the very thing we are discussing: Could Phillips tell a warm body from a cold one or not?

    We all know that core temperature taken by thermometer yelds other results than hand palpation, it´s nothing new.

    And yes, Pjhillips knew that he had to factor in the damages and the temperature. This we know because he said so at the inquest. He took height for it when he offered two hours as a minimum. Normally, he would not have done so, because he was well aware that body warmth can be detected for three hours or more in the normal case.

    The only smoke throwed around is the effort to sweep the paper under tha carpet. Too late for that now.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PaulB View Post

      I'm not relying on Steve, just pointing out that he disagreed with you. Whether you are better able to understand the article that he is, or vice versa, is something on which I can make no constructive comment. It's simply that there is a strong difference of opinion that needs a definitive resolution, and the possibility that three witnesses outweighs his estimated time of death is a legitimate consideration until we have one. Personally, I haven't allowed Baxter's comments about Phillips to prejudice my opinion at all.
      It is a much less legitimate consideration once we know that trained personnel will in nineteen cases out of twenty be able to tell differing temperatures of three degrees or more apart, just as they in fifteen cases out of twenty can tell one- or two degree differences apart. That is. not to say that we have full certainty, but the odds are very much against the witnesses in my book.

      Many more people than Steve disagree with me, by the way... but I take heart in how I am quite confident that they are wrong.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

        Dear Fisherman. We do have experts that actually said that the technique used by Phillips (estimating time of death based on temperature) is so unreliable as to be unsafe.

        And they are correct. I thought I had made that clear?

        Therefore, by extension, they are saying that no reliance can be placed on the TOD estimation provided by Phillips (since he used such a technique).

        No, that does not follow. If we say that it is life-threatening to climb Mount Everest, that does not mean it is life-thretening to climb a molehill. It is all about the difficulties involved in the task at hand, and a technique that cannot establish factor A with any ceraiinty may well be able to establish factor B with great exactitude. So the extension you blithely suggest cannot be accepted.

        Not only are the authors of this advice experts, they are the training and professional body for all pathologists working in the UK and have issued guidance telling pathologists to not give the impression to police authorities that they could even provide a window in which death likely occurred using this technique, as the technique is not capable of providing reliable information.

        Once again the technique cannot be relied upon to provide an exact TOD. But where do your experts say that we may rely on how a trained medico is anywhere near likely to mistake warm bodies for long dead, cold ones?

        Of course this does not mean Phillips was wrong, but in light of contradictory information provided by witnesses, Phillips estimate must be considered weak given the technique he used is known not to be reliable.
        The technique he used is quite reliable when it comes to telling cold from warm.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          My responses in blue....twaddle in black


          I have no problems acknowledging that trying to establish a TOD by way of hand palpation must always result in a guess.

          I’ve already provided a source in this thread that the time-honoured method of checking a corpse for warmth is with the back of the hand. Do you have ANY evidence that medics have ever established TOD “by way of hand palpation”? If not, can you please stop discussing hand palpation in the context of establishing a TOD.


          Conversely, a bdoy will start feeling cold to the touch after 4-6 hours, once more generally speaking.

          Human bodies can still cold to the touch while alive! Your claim that this happens after 4-6hours is palpable nonsense for which you’ve never provided a source, and, I might add, it contradicts the estimate provided by Dr Phillips!


          This means (and this is of course totally obvious) that what makes the body feel cold to the touch is a drop in temperature in the body core.

          It’s not obvious. It’s totally false. What makes the body feel cold to the touch is loss of heat at the body surface.


          And before I presented the paper I posted on hand palpation, there was no scientific material at hand that offered a solution to that question. But now there is. There is a less than 5 per cent likelihood that trained therapists will miss out on a temperature difference of 3 degrees or more.
          When Phillips said that the body was cold to the touch, he would have made this kind of a mistake - or worse - if the body was in fact warm..


          So you are now using that irrelevant paper, which discusses the significance of the ability of modern therapists to better assess the temperature difference between two pads in controlled temperature conditions by using hand palpation, as evidence that Dr Phillips had magical ability to be able to overcome human biology and accurately assess by touch on a cold night whether a still relatively warm but rapidly cooling body was “cold” or not? You have sunk to the very lowest depth that it is possible to sink in your obsessive desire to frame Lechmere for the murder of Chapman.


          And it WOULD have been warm a mere hour after death. There is no telling exactly HOW warm, buyt warm it would have been.

          That may or may not be true but would it have FELT warm? That’s the point. You’ve never provided any evidence or source to support the claim that it MUST have felt warm and I’ve provided plenty against. In any case, Payne-James tells us that it is "useless" to provide an indication of time of death from feeling whether the body is warm or cold.


          Phillips is unlikely in the extreme to have judged a body dead for one hour only as cold to the touch if it was only one hour dead.


          That is no more than your ill informed opinion with no source provided for it. It’s a circular argument in any case. You are basically saying that Phillips was right because he was right. Payne-James has told us that judging a body by touch is a useless method to indicate time of death. Your claim that Phillips is "unlikely" to have got it wrong is based on voodoo magic and blind faith, not science.


          This was also accepted by the Lancet at the time, for example, just as it became the stance of the police. The area that needs to be bridged by accepting a mistake on Phillips´ behalf is quite simply way to large.


          Neither the Lancet nor the police made any comment on whether Phillips was or was not likely to have correctly judged a body dead for an hour or not. The police wouldn’t have had a clue. Phillips qualified his opinion in any case, accepting that some factors could have accelerated cooling. The experienced coroner decided that those factors did accelerate cooling and determined that Chapman was probably killed an hour prior to Phillips' examination.




          Once again you are mistaken. The twaddle is all blue.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post


            He didn’t say those words. He actually qualified his opinion and accepted that TOD could have been 5.30.

            You are simply making things up.


            More twaddle in blue. Phillips knew quite well that a body will be warm enough for a medico to feel it up to three hours or more after death. When you claim that I make things up, you are actually making things up.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              No, I think you need to read your paper again and understand that palpation has nothing to do with estimating time of death by a pathologist.[/SIZE]
              That is perhaps the most remarkable sentence out here yet. Palpation is the name of the very method the victorian doctors used in 1888. If you are telling us that todays pathologists will use a thermometer, you really could have saved us the pain of having to read something everybody already knew.

              Try red. Or green. Blue seems to make you say stupid things.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                It is a much less legitimate consideration once we know that trained personnel will in nineteen cases out of twenty be able to tell differing temperatures of three degrees or more apart, just as they in fifteen cases out of twenty can tell one- or two degree differences apart. That is. not to say that we have full certainty, but the odds are very much against the witnesses in my book.

                Many more people than Steve disagree with me, by the way... but I take heart in how I am quite confident that they are wrong.
                It would indeed be a much less legitimate consideration if we knew that Dr Phillips was able to do as you describe and if what you describe indicates the probable time of death, but I'm afraid that in light of the disagreement you need independent and expert corroboration for what you confidently believe to be true.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by PaulB View Post

                  It would indeed be a much less legitimate consideration if we knew that Dr Phillips was able to do as you describe and if what you describe indicates the probable time of death, but I'm afraid that in light of the disagreement you need independent and expert corroboration for what you confidently believe to be true.
                  Well, the paper I posted is clear on how palpation is a method that allows for identifying subtle diffrences in temperature, so that is five experts telling us that what has been claimed by Herlock Sholmes et al was never true. Plus I have of course provided lots of material that tells us that rigor will not set in quickly in cold conditions and that the temperature of the human body will not drop muych - if anything - during the first hour of death. That is material that weighed together points very clearly in favour of what I say.

                  Finding a paper or thesis on how well Phillips performed on the night in question will not be possible. We can only look at the facts and how different sources report their finds and extrapolate to try and find what is the likeliest solution to the issue at hand, and since every medical parameter that is called upon by those who dislike Phillips are parameters that come into play in freak circumstances, more or less, and since the only evidence pointing to Phillips possiblt being wrong is three shaky and uncertain witnesses, I am fine with accepting that this is as far as the evidence takes us.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                    I don´t need any more of this at all. Nor does anybody else. We KNOW that bodies do not turn cold in an hour only, and so we may safely throw these cases in the dustbin as mistakes by the medicos. Of course, in cases where somebody says that a completely cold body has been dead for at least an hour, he or she WILL be correct. Nota bene that they do not say that they find it likely that the body has been dead for an hour only. The same thing applies for Phillips - saying at least two hours does not mean that two hours is the suggested time of death.

                    Look, for example, at the example with "Dr Verity" (herm) - he says "She may have been dead one hour and forward up to twelve hours. I express my opinion because I did not know the circumstances and I wish to be correct." Since he knows nothing about the circumstances, he makes the call 1-12 hours. If you think that a one hour dead person will have the same core temperature as a twelve hour dead person, you need to do some little reading up.

                    The examples you present are all along these lines. And we can exclude in all cases that death had occurred within an hour in any of them if the body was quite cold. Once again, it is physically impossible for a body to loose all detectable warmth in an hour only.

                    So why would not Phillips do the same mistake, you ask. I would say partly because he was a very experienced medico (which I very much doubt the ones in your examples were) and partly because we know that a very rapid cooling of a body will not produce any rigor - it will slow it down or even halt it.

                    Of course, freak thinking will be accompanied by freak examples. it was to be expected, and the one result is that you show off your ignorance when you accept these cases as true representations of how bodies have grown cold in one hour only. None of them did. But Google on, by all means. It´s entertaining enough.

                    We KNOW that bodies do not turn cold in an hour only, and so we may safely throw these cases in the dustbin as mistakes by the medicos.

                    No, we do not KNOW this. I repeat that human bodies can feel cold while alive. This is well known. In such cases, what do you think they are going to feel like an hour after death?


                    Of course, in cases where somebody says that a completely cold body has been dead for at least an hour, he or she WILL be correct

                    But what does “completely cold” mean? If a person feels completely cold while alive, they are going to feel completely cold an hour after death aren’t they?


                    If you think that a one hour dead person will have the same core temperature as a twelve hour dead person, you need to do some little reading up.


                    No, Fisherman you are misunderstanding as usual? Dr Verity said nothing about the “core temperature”. He just said the body was cold. Quite correctly, he said that this means that the deceased could have been dead between an hour and 12 hours. Even more correctly, he could have said it could have been just about any time between her death and his examination.

                    The examples you present are all along these lines. And we can exclude in all cases that death had occurred within an hour in any of them if the body was quite cold. Once again, it is physically impossible for a body
                    to loose all detectable warmth in an hour only.


                    That’s not true. You’ve never provided a source to support this.

                    But it misses the point anyway. You said that a medic would never say that a cold body was murdered an hour earlier. The examples provided show that, as usual, you were wrong.



                    So why would not Phillips do the same mistake, you ask. I would say partly because he was a very experienced medico (which I very much doubt the ones in your examples were) and partly because we know that a very rapid cooling of a body will not produce any rigor - it will slow it down or even halt it.

                    But aside from the fact that he didn’t have magic hands and therefore couldn’t accurately tell whether a dead body was cold or not, he was operating in the nineteenth century when not only were all the variables that could accelerate body cooling not known but it also wasn’t known that it the perceived warmth of a body to touch is useless as an indicator of time of death.

                    It’s also untrue to say that a very rapid cooling of a body will not produce rigor in all circumstances. We’ve already seen that a cut throat (sudden hemorrhage) and wasting disease will accelerate rigor.



                    Of course, freak thinking will be accompanied by freak examples.

                    Produce a single expert in forensic pathology who says that accelerated cooling and accelerated rigor is a “freak” event. It’s well known that there are variables which will produce accelerated cooling and rigor which is why forensic pathologists say that body cooling and rigor should NOT be used to estimate time of death.

                    How many times have I asked you to produce this evidence?

                    Probably half a dozen.

                    Have you produced it yet?


                    NO, because it doesn’t exist.
                    Regards

                    Herlock






                    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                      The paper concerns itself with how close temoperatures hand palpation can tell apart. That is monumentally important here, because it is the very thing we are discussing: Could Phillips tell a warm body from a cold one or not?

                      We all know that core temperature taken by thermometer yelds other results than hand palpation, it´s nothing new.

                      And yes, Pjhillips knew that he had to factor in the damages and the temperature. This we know because he said so at the inquest. He took height for it when he offered two hours as a minimum. Normally, he would not have done so, because he was well aware that body warmth can be detected for three hours or more in the normal case.

                      The only smoke throwed around is the effort to sweep the paper under tha carpet. Too late for that now.


                      The paper concerns itself with how close temoperatures hand palpation can tell apart. That is monumentally important here, because it is the very thing we are discussing: Could Phillips tell a warm body from a cold one or not?

                      That’s a non-sequitur. You move from hand palpation to Phillips in one fell swoop. Where is the evidence that Phillips would have even contemplated palpating Chapman’s dead body? And if he did, how would being able to assess differences in temperature between different parts of the body have enabled him to accurately assess whether her dead body was cold or not? And even if he did manage that, what possible use would that information have been to him to indicate the time of Chapman’s death when Payne-James tells us, and you have agreed, that this method is useless in indicating time of death and should not be relied on?


                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                        More twaddle in blue. Phillips knew quite well that a body will be warm enough for a medico to feel it up to three hours or more after death. When you claim that I make things up, you are actually making things up.
                        Phillips knew quite well that a body will be warm enough for a medico to feel it up to three hours or more after death. When you claim that I make things up, you are actually making things up.

                        All you are doing there is using Phillips to support himself (although you are actually arguing with him because his time estimate was at least two hours, not three!). The whole point is that Phillips in 1888 didn’t have sufficient knowledge to be able to do what he was trying to do. That’s why Payne-James says that his method of assessing time of death was useless.


                        Regards

                        Herlock






                        "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                          That is perhaps the most remarkable sentence out here yet. Palpation is the name of the very method the victorian doctors used in 1888. If you are telling us that todays pathologists will use a thermometer, you really could have saved us the pain of having to read something everybody already knew.

                          Try red. Or green. Blue seems to make you say stupid things.
                          Palpation is the name of the very method the victorian doctors used in 1888

                          Could you produce some evidence for this please in the context of touching a dead body to assess body temperature? Just one bit of evidence will do.

                          In the paper you cited, the subjects were required to palpate “with the palmar surface of the dominant hand”. It was a specific form of palpation.

                          I remind you that I’ve already provided a source which says the traditional method of checking a dead body for warmth was the back of the hand.



                          If you are telling us that todays pathologists will use a thermometer, you really could have saved us the pain of having to read something everybody already knew.

                          No, I’m telling you they just used touch. Are you using “palpate” as a synonym for “touch”? Because to palpate is what a doctor does on a living body during a medical examination to assess for certain specific conditions which only apply to their living patients. They don’t "palpate" dead bodies. If you mean “touch” just use that word.

                          Do I have to explain everything to you?
                          Regards

                          Herlock






                          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                            Well, the paper I posted is clear on how palpation is a method that allows for identifying subtle diffrences in temperature, so that is five experts telling us that what has been claimed by Herlock Sholmes et al was never true. Plus I have of course provided lots of material that tells us that rigor will not set in quickly in cold conditions and that the temperature of the human body will not drop muych - if anything - during the first hour of death. That is material that weighed together points very clearly in favour of what I say.

                            Finding a paper or thesis on how well Phillips performed on the night in question will not be possible. We can only look at the facts and how different sources report their finds and extrapolate to try and find what is the likeliest solution to the issue at hand, and since every medical parameter that is called upon by those who dislike Phillips are parameters that come into play in freak circumstances, more or less, and since the only evidence pointing to Phillips possiblt being wrong is three shaky and uncertain witnesses, I am fine with accepting that this is as far as the evidence takes us.


                            Well, the paper I posted is clear on how palpation is a method that allows for identifying subtle diffrences in temperature, so that is five experts telling us that what has been claimed by Herlock Sholmes et al was never true.

                            But, as I have repeatedly pointed out (and you didn’t respond except to say “twaddle”), a pathologist isn’t attempting to detect subtle differences in temperature in a dead body. That’s something that applies to living patients only. We are talking about a doctor feeling a body and deciding whether it is cold or warm. It’s got nothing to do with “differences”. Until you address this point you might as well be shouting at the passing traffic.


                            Plus I have of course provided lots of material that tells us that rigor will not set in quickly in cold conditions and that the temperature of the human body will not drop muych - if anything - during the first hour of death. That is material that weighed together points very clearly in favour of what I say.

                            Could you please re-post this “lots of material” because I must have missed it. As far as I’m aware, you’ve not provided ANY material to support those two statements. I don’t mean your waffle incidentally, I mean actual material.


                            Finding a paper or thesis on how well Phillips performed on the night in question will not be possible

                            No, that’s right but Payne-James says that ANY conclusion drawn from perceived body temperature is unreliable and useless. So we know for a fact that Phillips performed badly because he was attempting the impossible. If he was right, it was by luck only.

                            How many times do I need to repeat this for your and your tiny fan club?


                            Regards

                            Herlock






                            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                              Body temperature is variable, yes. But none of us go around with a temperature of 33 degrees. And Chapman was no anorectic, she was a sturdy but malnourished woman. Moreover, women normally have higher body temperatures than men, generally speaking.

                              And please, John - can we agree that Phillips would have known quite well that some people have cold hands and feet and foreheads and whatnot? He would ALSO have known that they nevertheless have a core temperature of around 37 degrees!

                              When Phillips said AT THE VERY LATEST 4.30, that would have entailed the parameters you mention. Phgillips would have reasoned that IF she had a normal temperature of 36 degrees only and IF the weater had a larger infkuence than usual and IF the damage lowered the temp as dramatically a possible, THEN she could perhaps have died as late as 4.30. It is not as if he recommended that as the best solution, is it? He said that it was probaly MORE, since he knew that he would be able to feel warmth for at least three hours in normal cases - but he acknowledged that if all parameters were extremely in favour of cooling of rapidly, then it could perhaps be two hours only.

                              That is Phillips´ haggling over and done with. We cant ask for a second round of haggling, John. Least of all one that detracts half of the minimum time...
                              I will now attempt to provide a definitive response.

                              Firstly, as an overview, body temperature is by no means an accurate way of determining time of death. It has been argued that Henssge's Nomogram is the most accurate means, however, even this method, involving a series of complex calculations, is flawed: Hubig et al. 2015, found that 57.1% of cases did not fall within 95% confidence interval.

                              But this is all largely incidental because as I shall now demonstrate, Dr Phillips, The Man with the Golden Touch , didn't even understand the basics of forensic science.

                              Thus, Phillips attempted to determine ToD simply by touching the victims skin. This is a grossly unscientific method and, frankly, he should have known better. For instance, skin temperature readings are unreliable, and declines at a different rate than, say, rectal temperature readings (not that he actually did any readings, so his approach wasn't remotely scientific, or objective, instead relying on the subjectiveness of touch alone. And considering that the importance of taking a rectal temperature was known as early as 1869, he should of known better: see Rainy, 1869.

                              ​​​​​​Of course, he also failed to make any calculations to take into account environmental factors, which is problematic because factors such as the presence of wind passing over the body, body posture (as a result of altered surface area exposed), and the victim being found partially naked can all influence cooling rates (this we can forgive him, as forensic science was in its infancy).

                              Regarding initial body temperature. Normal rectal body temperature for women doesn't vary by a great deal- 36.8-37.1 degrees C. However, as there are wider variations in respect of oral temperatures- 33.2-38.1: see Sund- Levender et al, 2002, further highlighting the importance of taking a rectal temperature.

                              However, Chapman was almost certainly not of normal body temperature. According to Dr Phillips' autopsy she was greatly undernourished and suffering from an advanced lung disease (this may well have been tuberculosis). And if Chapman was suffering from tuberculosis, it had almost certainly progressed to gastric tuberculosis, which occurred in an overwhelming number of cases in the pre-anti biotic age, further exasperating problems (this may partly explain the undernourishment).

                              How would this have impacted on body temperature. The answer is a great deal. Considering disease, for example. Carpenter, et al. 2004, in a study of cancer sufferers, found that five out of eight subjects had mesors at or below 36.09 degrees c. In respect of caloric restriction (Chapman was greatly undernourished), individuals in the Biosphere 2 study, who were subject to chronic caloric restriction, and weight loss, had temperatures that were often in the range of 35.5 to 36.1 C, sometimes less: Walford et al, 1999. To put that into perspective, cooling rates, not taking into account environmental factors, are around 0.82 C per hour (The Glaister Equation) so a difference of just 1 degree would require a time adjustment of more than an hour (incidentally, in the paper you cited, you referred to being seen degree or two out as if it was only of a minor consequence; this isn't correct as 1 degree would require an adjustment of more than hour, and 2 degrees more than 2 hours: see the Glaister Equation.)

                              I have therefore demonstrated that Dr Phillips' estimate cannot be relied upon and can be safely dismissed.

                              So what of the witness statements. John Richardson that when he went to Hanbury Street, between 4:45 and 4:50, there was no body..And he is certain about this: "I could not have failed to notice the deceased had she been lying there then." He had no reason whatsoever to lie on this point, especially as he was effectively placing himself close to where the body was found with a knife in his hand- something that was if definite interest to the coroner-"I think we will detain this knife for the present." Of course, Inspector Chandler somewhat contradicts his account by stating that Richardson had said that he didn't go down the steps, but he was obviously incompetent: I mean, he didn't even bother to take notes of the interview, and was clearly relying memory. Moreover, he may have conducted a somewhat perfunctory interview, considering he had to be at the mortuary just a few minutes later.

                              If there are any remaining doubts about Chandler's competence, reflect on this exchange with the coroner:

                              Coroner: "Did you see the handkerchief taken off the body?

                              Chandler: "I did not. The nurses must have taken it off the throat."

                              Coroner: "How do you know?"

                              Chandler: "I don't know."

                              Coroner: " Then you are guessing."

                              Chandler: " I am guessing."

                              Coroner: "That is all wrong, you know. (To the jury.) He is really not the proper man to have been left in charge."

                              So there you have it. The evidence of a doctor, who didn't even understand the basics of forensics, and whose evidence, regards time of death, is therefore completely useless, and an incompetent police officer, against that of a reliable witness who had absolutely no reason to lie.

                              It's novel difficult to see where the truth lies, is it?

                              Comment


                              • Fisherman, there is one thing that needs to be clarified here because I don’t think you are quite understanding what it means to say that a body feels cold after death.

                                Take the temperature of 25 degrees centigrade (77 degrees fahrenheit). If that’s the air temperature, it’s going to be a very warm summer’s day isn’t it?

                                So take a dead body which a thermometer would measure on the surface at 25 degrees centigrade. That’s a massive drop of 12 degrees centigrade from an assumed body temperature of 37 degrees at time of death, right?

                                Now, please answer this: is a body which is 25 degrees centigrade warm or cold?

                                Because certainly 25 degrees is 25 degrees higher than zero. So there must be warmth there, right? That’s what the thermometer reading of 25 degrees is measuring!

                                But a body which is 25 degrees is going to FEEL cold to the touch isn’t it?

                                If that's the case, then an objectively warm body will feel cold, which is what I've been saying all along.

                                Or is it your position that a trained medical hand (whether by palpation or any other method) is going to be able to feel warmth in a dead body down to 1 degree centigrade?



                                Regards

                                Herlock






                                "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                                Comment

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