Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[moonbegger]

Hi Dave ,

Thanks for the links .. Very interesting . And as for the ,

"An earlier murder time than that generally accepted really does alter perceptions a little does it not?

Abso-bloody-loutly , For one it closes the door on the theory that she may have been murdered elsewhere , and brought to the yard ! A theory that I , for one con scribed too and saw as the only viable explanation for many a year .. until i got on here and had the opportunity to dissect Richardson's , Long's , and Cadosh's statements .. i always was a firm believer that Dr Phillips TOD was medically accurate , And in fact i now believe that his evidence / statement is the only truly reliable evidence in regards to this particular murder ... Richardson is unreliable , Cadosh is vague , and Long is confused ...
here is one more thought on the Long sighting .. What if she was lying ? or put up to lie by someone else ? who wanted to point a finger at a certain class/race of people. Either way , what if she sat back later that day and thought ,, " 29 Hanbury street is on my route to work , 5.30am ( around the time the murder was believed to have happened ) is around the time i would be passing by , Why not take advantage of the fact , and paint myself into the picture ". So whatever time she left home and arrived at work that morning didn't matter if she was gonna tie it together to make her story fit. ( guess she didn't take into account that her timing issues would be under the microscope a 100 years later ) So .. was in fact Elizibeth Long the original Weir side Jack ?

cheers .
moonbegger,

[lynn cates]

dissertations

Hello Dave. Ah, so you had a go at the Yost and Vanderlinden dissertations? Splendid! Both are well done.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi again Moonbeggar

In all fairness, I think this one might interest you too, being a dissertation on the discrepancies in timing not only between Cadosch and Long, but also between them, Richardson and the medical evidence:-

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

An earlier murder time than that generally accepted really does alter perceptions a little does it not?

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Moonbeggar

The timing discrepancies are discussed at some length here:-

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-yostlong.html

I found it very helpful

Best wishes

Dave

[curious]

"The man said, 'Will you?' and she replied, 'Yes'".


Regards, Bridewell.

Hi, Bridewell,
Of course the fella could have been asking if she would be in the same location tomorrow morning . . .

curious

[lynn cates]

one off

Hello MB. If Mrs. Long is correct on her times, then Cadosch is off.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

She had to run an errand on the way...oh yeah? and she doesn't say so? Sorry Moonbeggar but, (at least for me), it doesn't quite work!

Good try though!

Dave

Hi Dave ,

The thing is , There are a multitude of reasons why her journey could have taken a bit longer that morning , if in fact it did . And the very fact that she knew exactly how long her, same ol, same ol journey , to work would have taken every morning , and how long it took that faithful morning .. is an indication that she didnt think it was much of an issue , or thought it worthy of an explanation . And why would she ? Im thinking that at the time of the murders, same as it is today, sensationalism won out over hard facts every time, and story's were and are distorted, bent , twisted and remoulded in order to sell newspapers , and maybe even elevate personal public standings of certain people .. witnesses !

cheers
moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

She had to run an errand on the way...oh yeah? and she doesn't say so? Sorry Moonbeggar but, (at least for me), it doesn't quite work!

Good try though!

Dave

[moonbegger]

Hi All .
In her statement she said " I got out about five o'clock, and I reached the Spitalfields Market a few minutes after half-past five." which tells me she new exactly how long it took that morning .. she wasn't shocked or bemused by the time issue , which tells me maybe she had to do something on the way , run a errand or whatever ..

cheers
moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

If you haven't a watch (as I didn't in my younger years) you tend to fear the worst, especially if you're heading for work...I suspect she was fairly self-absorbed during her journey, trundling along on autopilot (as one does), heard the end of the clock's striking, assumed the worst, and made a conscious effort to speed up...it may even have been this that woke her to her surroundings and the people around her, and made her more conscious about what was happening in Hanbury Street than she otherwise would've been...

As Lynn posits, if she left home at 5am as usual, why did it take her nearly half an hour to cover a 10 to 15 minute walk? Unless you're suggesting she mistook the full hour chime (even less likely I'd have thought!)....

Like Lynn, I'd guess the time she arrived at the market was interpolated...she didn't get chaffed or bollocked, therefore she arrived on time...rather than early with a safety margin which is more likely the case...

OK I'm guessing (I hope intelligently)...but with the passing of years and in the absence of facts what else can one do?

Best wishes

Dave

[lynn cates]

2 points

Hello MB.

"Also she arrived at work at the market just after 5.35. Don't think it would have taken her 25 mins to walk down Hanbury street, a journey she had made many times"

Did she look at the clock then or merely interpolate 5 minutes to #29?

"and I'm guessing she would have been able to distinguish the 4 chimes of quarter past, to the 8 chimes of half past."

Indeed. But only if she were attending. We have a clock at my university which chimes precisely as Big Ben. Many and many times I have been preoccupied and been off by a quarter hour or more.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

"They were talking together, and were close against the shutters of No.29".

ergo they were not standing in front of No.31.

"The man said, 'Will you?' and she replied, 'Yes'".

This sounds more like before the event than after to me.

Mrs Long was unsure of the man's age and of things like the colour of his coat. She was certain of only two things: that the time was only just after 5.30, and that the woman was the one whose body she later saw in the mortuary (i.e. Chapman). Yes, a witness can be certain and still be mistaken, but the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell .
You are quoting the Times newspaper .. who seem to ham it up a bit and get it wrong .. in the inquest report what she actually said was " I saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking. The man's back was turned towards Brick-lane, and the woman's was towards the market. They were standing only a few yards nearer Brick-lane from 29, Hanbury-street". That puts them outside 31 Hanbury street .
She also said she didn't pay them much attention .. but was able to ID Annies pitiful remains almost 5 days after the event ( i suggest Not )
Also she arrived at work at the market just after 5.35 ..Dont think it would have taken her 25 mins to walk down Hanbury street, a journey she had made many times , and i'm guessing she would have been able to distinguish the 4 chimes of quarter past , to the 8 chimes of half past .
and the " will you " and "yes" comments could have pertained to absolutely Anything .. Will you meet me again tonight , "yes" Will you come to my birthday party "yes " this part is total conjecture .. like a piece of wet clay you can mould it whatever way you wish .

cheers
moonbegger.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Bridewell,

Church Street.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Colin. But if she had just left home (at 5.00, she said), why was a 10-15 minute walk stretched into half an hour?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

So she was sure which quarter had just chimed?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Impossible to know, but she said she was:

"It was about 5.30. She was certain of the time, as the brewer's clock had just struck that time when she passed 29, Hanbury-street".

i know it's usual to assume that Mrs Long was wrong by15 minutes, but she had only just left home on Church Row, so I find it hard to believe that she was that far out.

Regards, Bridewell.