Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleetwood Mac,

I hope it wasn't your initials on MJK's wall.

Medico-Legal Aspects of Death—

Time of onset of rigor mortis is variable. In summer it may take 1—4 hours to develop while in winter it may take 3—6 hours to appear. The progress of rigor mortis is also variable according to weather conditions . . . If the atmosphere is dry and cold, the onset is slow . . . as compared to hot and humid conditions where onset is fast . . ."

New Scientist, May 1986—

"The time that rigor mortis takes to set in varies according to temperature. To some extent, the rate of onset follows the general rule for chemical reactions—the lower the temperature, the slower the reaction. But there are anomalies. Between 38ºC [100F] and 25ºC [77F], a decrease of 10ºC [50F] almost halves the rate at which rigor sets in. At lower temperatures, however, rigor sets in more quickly than it does at some higher temperatures. at 2ºC [35.6F], for example, rigor sets in faster than it does at 15ºC [59F] and at about the same rate as it does at 22ºC [71.6F]."

The recorded low temperature for 8th September 1888 was 7.9ºC [46.3F].

Allegedly, Annie Chapman was last seen alive at 5.30 am.

Dr. Phillips—"On Saturday last I was called by the police at 6.20 a.m. to 29 Hanbury-street, and arrived at half-past six . . . Stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but it was commencing . . ."

I'll have to leave it to more scientific minds to work this out.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

I'm a seasoned campaigner, mate, far more interested in sadism than leaving signs and clues as impenetrable as a South American rain forest.

I think we'd agree that in those conditions the chances are that rigor mortis would not have set in by 6.30 were she killed at 5.20.

This leaves us with probability.

Which in turn leaves us with weighing this up against the probability of Long/Cadosh/Richardson.

Richardson and Long are redundant for me for the reasons stated.

Which leaves us with a probability of what we know of rigor mortis versus the probability of noises and whispers equalling a murder.

It's not even close for me, and I'd imagine that logic would agree with me.

Also, in the event you want to predict what human beings will do then look at how human beings behave, and events suggest Jack killed in the dark.

[Archaic]

That's an interesting idea, Mitch.

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I'm sure he was very concerned for his mother's safety; who wouldn't be?

Best regards,
Archaic

[lynn cates]

variance

Hello MB. Yes, I think Vanderlinden made an analogous argument in the dissertation.

Just one question, does rigor mortis ALWAYS occur just the same in each person?

Cheers.
LC

[Mitch Rowe]

Maybe Richardson actually confronted or saw Annie and JTR in the hallway or heard something and decided to leave. Then after Annie was found he was afraid for his Mothers safety and made up a story to tell Police? If he didnt know at the time of the confrontation that he was talking to JTR and then left for work he might have been very frightened later. He puts himself ther in case of witnesses who may have seen him. He makes up a story about cutting the boot to make others believe Annie was not there so he doesnt have to explain much. When he realizes that Police may ask why they didnt find a piece of leather he says the knife was dull.

[moonbegger]

Hi All
There is also this comparison to Edodows murder regarding Rigor mortis ..
Dr. Brown stated that he was called to Mitre Square shortly after 2:00 a.m. and arrived there at around 2:20. By this time Catherine Eddowes had been dead for roughly forty minutes. Brown observed that "the body had been mutilated, and was quite warm - no rigor mortis." We can therfore say that, after roughly forty minutes, a body with extensive mutilations that was found under cool outdoor conditions was examined and described as being "quite warm." How do we reconcile this with the idea that the body of Annie Chapman was found to be almost completely cold after only the passing of twenty more minutes? We can't. It is very difficult to believe that in under twenty minutes almost all body heat would have dissipated into the morning air. This would be the work of a couple of hours, not minutes. Again, that observation is more in line with Dr. Phillips' opinion as to the time of death of Annie Chapman.

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

temp

Hello Simon. Thanks. That helps. Bagster seemed to allow that the temperature were a factor that morning.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

rigours of investigation

Hello MB, Mac. Found this about rigor mortis. Note the 10 minute possibility.

Cheers.
LC

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fleetwood Mac,

I hope it wasn't your initials on MJK's wall.

Medico-Legal Aspects of Death—

Time of onset of rigor mortis is variable. In summer it may take 1—4 hours to develop while in winter it may take 3—6 hours to appear. The progress of rigor mortis is also variable according to weather conditions . . . If the atmosphere is dry and cold, the onset is slow . . . as compared to hot and humid conditions where onset is fast . . ."

New Scientist, May 1986—

"The time that rigor mortis takes to set in varies according to temperature. To some extent, the rate of onset follows the general rule for chemical reactions—the lower the temperature, the slower the reaction. But there are anomalies. Between 38ºC [100F] and 25ºC [77F], a decrease of 10ºC [50F] almost halves the rate at which rigor sets in. At lower temperatures, however, rigor sets in more quickly than it does at some higher temperatures. at 2ºC [35.6F], for example, rigor sets in faster than it does at 15ºC [59F] and at about the same rate as it does at 22ºC [71.6F]."

The recorded low temperature for 8th September 1888 was 7.9ºC [46.3F].

Allegedly, Annie Chapman was last seen alive at 5.30 am.

Dr. Phillips—"On Saturday last I was called by the police at 6.20 a.m. to 29 Hanbury-street, and arrived at half-past six . . . Stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but it was commencing . . ."

I'll have to leave it to more scientific minds to work this out.

Regards,

Simon

[Fleetwood Mac]

We have a doctor who estimates the time of death based on rigor mortis setting in. Though not an exact science, I feel it is a fair bet that it would take around 2 hours to set in. My understanding is that this is supported by modern views.

That's a well founded argument to suggest she died a good time earlier than 5.20.

So, the witnesses:

Richardson? surely not.

Long? didn't take much notice of a stranger; long time in identifying the body.

Personally, at this point I am underwhelmed by the time of death after 4.30 argument.

That leaves Cadosch. Now this is a better argument for the 5.20/5.30ers. Whispering, a thud against the fence in the immediate vicinity. Were it another fence in another yard, then surely he would have understood the noise to have come from farther away than 29; were it indoors, would he not have realised; how many people would have been whispering in a yard at that time.

On balance, though, I'm going with the doctor. Prefer a TOD based on what is known of rigor mortis when compared with whispers and noises.

[moonbegger]

Perhaps If she was ( over egging the pudding ) so to speak , a sweeping generalisation like that would have more than served its purpose .

"Wish she had been more explicit"

Yes , and also if she had mentioned how long her regular jaunt to work usually took , and why (if it did ) take longer that particular morning ..

moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

foreign looking

Hello MB. Quite possibly. Of course, I am intrigued by the description of "foreign looking." Wish she had been more explicit.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Not sure why Mrs. Long would lie. Her statement, best I can tell, was that the man talking with Annie was foreign looking. I don't think race was specified.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,
i was suggesting something more along the lines of not a particular race but more a [Not one of us ] or[ Not an Englishman ] You dont think that " Dark looking " or " looked like a foreigner" would convey this message ?

moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

Show no quarter (hour).

Hello Simon. Indeed. And that is why I prefer to cast Mrs. Long out by the quarter hour.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Albert Cadosch said—"It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church."

It was about 250 yards from 27 Hanbury Street [via the corner of Wilkes Street and Church Row] to Spitalfields Church. This would have taken Cadosch around two to three minutes at a regular walking pace, which means he left his house at around 5.30 am, just as Annie Chapman and her companion were standing on Hanbury Street and Mrs Elizabeth Long/Durrell hoved onto the scene.

Wynne Baxter should have dismissed Cadosh's evidence, for if Mrs Long was right in her assertion that Chapman was alive at 5.30 am, then what Cadosch heard from his back yard ten and then five minutes earlier could not have had anything to do with her murder.

However, Wynne Baxter attempted to square the evidential circle.

Wynne Baxter: "There is some conflict in the evidence about the time at which the deceased was despatched. It is not unusual to find inaccuracy in such details, but this variation is not very great or very important. She [Chapman] was talking outside the house at half-past five when Mrs. Long passed them . . . Cadosh says it was about 5.20 when he was in the backyard of the adjoining house, and heard a voice say "No," and three or four minutes afterwards [5.23-5.24 am] a fall against the fence . . ." [my brackets]

" . . . but if he [Cadosh] is out of his reckoning but a quarter of an hour, the discrepancy in the evidence of fact vanishes, and he may be mistaken, for he admits that he did not get up till a quarter past five, and that it was after the half-hour when he passed Spitalfields clock."

All of which makes absolutely no sense given that Wynne Baxter's fixed point in Cadosch's evidence was his getting up at 5.15 am.

"But a quarter of an hour" earlier put the time of Cadosch's backyard encounter at around 5.05 am—twenty five minutes before Chapman was seen alive by Mrs Long—and "but a quarter of an hour" later put his backyard encounter at 5.35 am—three minutes after he passed Spitalfields Church.

Exeunt Dr Phillips pursued by a bear.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

foreign looking

Hello MB. Not sure why Mrs. Long would lie. Her statement, best I can tell, was that the man talking with Annie was foreign looking. I don't think race was specified.

Cheers.
LC