Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. But would not such loud talking awaken some of the many household members? Would one dare commit a murder in the backyard of a rather large house AFTER arousing some of those inside?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I suppose it boils down to how loud.

Shouting wouldn't have been prudent.

Interpretation again: talking loudly as in not whispering, or a few more decibels up the scale.

Why exactly would he be shouting when presumably the supposed Annie is in ear shot? I'd guess just a normal conversation?

[lynn cates]

loud

Hello Mac. But would not such loud talking awaken some of the many household members? Would one dare commit a murder in the backyard of a rather large house AFTER arousing some of those inside?

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

[B]To my mind, tying things in with the medical evidence is the key part...the coroner seemed to favour the witnesses testimony over that of the medic...this seems unusual, (it generally being the other way round I think), and suggests to me that Cadosch and Long came across as pretty compelling witnesses...

Wynne Baxter was a lawyer, a solicitor rather; he had little medical experience...Well, he was an amateur botanist and wrote a book on microscopes... Anyway, there was no reason for him to favor the police or Phillips for that matter. He spent much of his time in contention with the police and with Bagster Phillips.

Both Cadosch and Long showed up late in the very extensive inquest and Baxter thought such important witnesses should have been located and brought forth sooner. If my memory serves me right, I think the press found Cadosch before the police did. Its a little strange he didn't just go to the police... he certainly knew about the murder. Long took a while to appear too.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. I think I can agree that, if there WERE a Jack the Ripper, he did not wait until sunup to kill, NOR did he talk loudly next the shutters.

But then again . . .

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Definitely not killing in daylight, but I don't have a problem with talking loudly. I don't think it would have been a concern at all. Providing he wasn't caught red handed then he would have been long gone by the time the police started their search. Personally don't think he'd have cared a jot about having been seen or having been heard.

[lynn cates]

If . . . then - - -

Hello Mac. I think I can agree that, if there WERE a Jack the Ripper, he did not wait until sunup to kill, NOR did he talk loudly next the shutters.

But then again . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Richardson - unreliable

Well how can I dispute that? Undoubtedly so...

Cadosch - unsure

I can't see how you can justify that - he's not claimed to have heard Annie Chapman being murdered - he seems only to have testified, to the best of his knowledge, to what he heard...he admits freely that he initially thought nothing of the noises he'd heard...His timings seem to hold up...

Long - confused

Again I don't get this...she identified Annie Chapman by her face...other witnesses in this series of killings seem to have relied on clothing...she might've been a tad wrong with her timings but this is far from unusual in the LVP...we're so obsessed with time in the modern world, we tend to forget how vague most peoples' timings were back then...

To my mind, tying things in with the medical evidence is the key part...the coroner seemed to favour the witnesses testimony over that of the medic...this seems unusual, (it generally being the other way round I think), and suggests to me that Cadosch and Long came across as pretty compelling witnesses...

So how long does food take to digest, and how much does chill (not extreme cold which delays the onset of rigor) advance rigor mortis...how much was the good doctor relying on body temperature, and how much rigor mortis?

I'm not a medical expert...and elsewhere on Casebook this matter has been done to death...the available medical thinking seems to be totally divided on both issues...so at present your guess is as good as mine...but it remains nothing more than a guess!

All the best

Dave

The problem with Long is that by her own admission she didn't take a great deal of notice. Why would she? And, I believe there was a delay before she viewed the body. Contrast this with Lawende who did take notice.

At least one of these 'suspects' was not Jack.

In terms of the rigor aspect, it would be unusual were it to have set in in 1 hour 10 minutes on a cold morning.

As ever, it's probabilities. The Dr versus Long, and throw in Cadosh who heard some noises.

I don't think it's even close in terms of which of the two scenarios is more likely, and throw in Jack's penchant for killing in the dark and the Drs time would support Jack's pattern of behaviour.

Cadosh is an interesting one, but really those shounds could have come rom anywhere in the vicinity. It's hard enough to nail them down at the best of times, but when he knows a murder has been committed in No 29, then clearly he makes the connection between the noises and the murder.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Dave. Could be because Dr. Phillips waffled a bit at inquest and admitted he might be in error.

Hi Lynn

You may well be right...but at least he was an honest witness...unlike some of the Spilsbury/Simpson crap...(especially the former)...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

But on this occasion, that would involve going over the fence into the yard where Cadosch was standing. Why didn't he ask the same question with regard to the fence between 29 & 31?

I have a feeling there was a factory occupying the garden space of numbers 31 and 33 (certainly there was at one point, hence the photo taken from the roof, of the back garden of No 29)...it's just I'm not sure exactly when that factory was built!

I'd guess, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that the fence where Cadosch was standing, represented the only reasonable escape route, barring the front passage to Hanbury Street...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

On the fence.

Hello Colin. Well, perhaps in his mind the answer applied to both? That is, he might have thought both fences in roughly the same condition.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Waffles, anyone?

Hello Dave. Could be because Dr. Phillips waffled a bit at inquest and admitted he might be in error.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Yes, But

Hello Colin. Perhaps he hypothesised that the assailant were wont to go over the fence?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

But on this occasion, that would involve going over the fence into the yard where Cadosch was standing. Why didn't he ask the same question with regard to the fence between 29 & 31?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

All three?

Richardson - unreliable

Well how can I dispute that? Undoubtedly so...

Cadosch - unsure

I can't see how you can justify that - he's not claimed to have heard Annie Chapman being murdered - he seems only to have testified, to the best of his knowledge, to what he heard...he admits freely that he initially thought nothing of the noises he'd heard...His timings seem to hold up...

Long - confused

Again I don't get this...she identified Annie Chapman by her face...other witnesses in this series of killings seem to have relied on clothing...she might've been a tad wrong with her timings but this is far from unusual in the LVP...we're so obsessed with time in the modern world, we tend to forget how vague most peoples' timings were back then...

To my mind, tying things in with the medical evidence is the key part...the coroner seemed to favour the witnesses testimony over that of the medic...this seems unusual, (it generally being the other way round I think), and suggests to me that Cadosch and Long came across as pretty compelling witnesses...

So how long does food take to digest, and how much does chill (not extreme cold which delays the onset of rigor) advance rigor mortis...how much was the good doctor relying on body temperature, and how much rigor mortis?

I'm not a medical expert...and elsewhere on Casebook this matter has been done to death...the available medical thinking seems to be totally divided on both issues...so at present your guess is as good as mine...but it remains nothing more than a guess!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

unanimous

Hello MB. A bit astonishing. I can understand a witness or two being a bit off, but all three?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB.

"Richardson is unreliable"

Tend to agree.

"Cadosh is unsure"

Hmm, can you live with imprecise?

"Long is Confused"

About what? The bell striking, surely? Else, she recognised Annie by her face--rare for the WCM witnesses. Most were by clothing.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,

i really don't think any of them are credible witnesses at all . And yes i think my original comment was " cadosh is vague "

cheers
moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

ingress/egress

Hello (again) MB. Could be. But the ingress/egress question looms large here. Mrs. Richardson obviated that vis-a-vis #29 by leaving the doors open.

Cheers.
LC