Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Dave. Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello Jon.

"the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence"

As am I. I think she made a hash of the time, but that is easy to do.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Mrs Long was unsure of the man's age and of things like the colour of his coat. She was certain of only two things: that the time was only just after 5.30, and that the woman was the one whose body she later saw in the mortuary (i.e. Chapman). Yes, a witness can be certain and still be mistaken, but the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence.

So she was sure which quarter had just chimed?

Dave

[Bridewell]

In effect the couple was standing in front of number 31 Hanbury Street

"They were talking together, and were close against the shutters of No.29".

ergo they were not standing in front of No.31.

"The man said, 'Will you?' and she replied, 'Yes'".

This sounds more like before the event than after to me.

Mrs Long was unsure of the man's age and of things like the colour of his coat. She was certain of only two things: that the time was only just after 5.30, and that the woman was the one whose body she later saw in the mortuary (i.e. Chapman). Yes, a witness can be certain and still be mistaken, but the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Moonbeggar...yes I think that was the account of Laura Sickings at Number 25 - wherein it was initially surmised the killer may have climbed the fences between the gardens prior to knocking his bloodstained coat on the fence at 25 whilst leaving bloodstained paper in the yard...apparently this tale was discredited by Inspector Chandler who investigated and said the blood mark on the fence was a urine stain, and the bloodstained paper didn't exist...

I'll look again for that elusive thread when I get a chance

Best wishes

Dave

[moonbegger]

Did Number 31 have a front door like Number 29, that was unlocked so that there was easy access from Hanbury Street to the backyard?

Frustratingly I seem to recall a thread wherein it was mentioned that all the backyard spaces on this side of the road were different, and some were built over completely...

Not sure but I have a hunch that at some time 31 and 33 had a factory or the like where the backyard should have been, but can't recall if this is right or the dates...I seem to recall some detailed maps being posted too, but where oh where is that dammed thread when you need it?

Dave

Hi Dave ,
that would be great to know ... wasn't there also some sort of a kerfuffle over blood on an adjacent fence that turned out to be urine ? was that maybe, 25 Hanbury street, Right next door to cadosh ? he said he didn't really know where the sound's emanated from .. could it have been almost anywhere in the immediate vicinity , especially given the crisp morning air and the natural acoustics of the location ?

cheers
moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

situation

Hello Dave. I know that feeling.

However, your main point works well--those other places need to have the passage open at all times like #29 in order for a similar situation to unfold with a punter and prostitute. Could be, but not too likely.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Grrrr

At about 5.10am " foreign looking man" and his lady enter the yard at the back of 31 Hanbury st ( or adjacent yard )

Did Number 31 have a front door like Number 29, that was unlocked so that there was easy access from Hanbury Street to the backyard?

Frustratingly I seem to recall a thread wherein it was mentioned that all the backyard spaces on this side of the road were different, and some were built over completely...

Not sure but I have a hunch that at some time 31 and 33 had a factory or the like where the backyard should have been, but can't recall if this is right or the dates...I seem to recall some detailed maps being posted too, but where oh where is that dammed thread when you need it?

Dave

[lynn cates]

loud

Hello MB. Well, we may be converging slowly.

It still looks like Long has them near the shutters of #29. By the way, they were both talking loudly. So I am delighted that someone, like yourself, who believes in a single killer does not try to equate Annie's killer with FLM. After all, if he is a stealth killer, why stand outside a window and talk loudly?

You are right that Phillips stayed with the TOD.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hi Lynn ,
i think we are on the same page at last Here is the thing about Longs statement , What she actually stated was that "FLM" and unfortunate were "standing only a few yards nearer Brick Lane from 29, Hanbury Street" In effect the couple was standing in front of number 31 Hanbury Street, also Amelia Richardson stated during her testimony that "you can open the front and back doors of any of the houses about there. There are People coming in and going out all through the night" ...

Also DR Phillips was only relating weather conditions , He stood firm by his original TOD .. in-fact it should be noted that the cold weather conditions and cold surface of the ground would in-fact slow down the onset of Rigor mortis , not speed it up . The onset had just began , thats why Dr Phillips said "she was dead at least 2 hours , if not longer " .

Hi Greg , i don't think there was any code of practice regarding how "chatty" you could or couldn't be with a client back then .. she may have even known him ( a happy customer is a repeat customer )

cheers

moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello MB. Thanks.

"YES 'FLM" was with unfortunate.'

Very well.

"YES , they did go through to the back yard next door to 29 for whatever."

Well, do we know about access there? I presume this was #25?

"(not sure of the numbers either side of 29)"

Well, should be #27 (Cadosch) and #31--other side of #29.

"situation was as follows {Cadosh in the yard left of 29 , Annie , Dead in the yard of 29, "FLM" and unfortunate in the yard to the right of 29}'

OK, then. #31, I suppose.

"Three different yards , each with their own entrance and exits .. hence, when "FLM + U left the back yard .. Annie was Across the fence, how could they see her!"

OK, I see your idea. And so when they left, they walked over in front of #29 and paused to chat?

"and TOD matches up with dr Phillips correct reasoning."

Well, it should. Of course, Dr. Phillips issued a caveat about the temperature, and rigor mortis is a tricky thing.

What of the fall against the paling on the side adjacent to #29? Your scenario accounts for the "No"--which Cadosch could not properly locate. But the fall would have been next #29.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

John Richardson was about as reliable as a ten-bob watch.

Echo, 16th September 1888 -



Four days after the concept of Leather Apron had been laid to rest.

Regards,

Simon

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

Were "FLM" and the lady, punter and unfortunate? If not, one wonders why they did not come forward. If they were, why did they not go into the yard for sex? If they were leaving the yard, why did they not see Annie?

Any particular reason for favouring the earlier TOD for Annie?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,
YES 'FLM" was with unfortunate . YES , they did go through to the back yard next door to 29 for whatever. ( not sure of the numbers either side of 29 ) situation was as follows { Cadosh in the yard left of 29 , Annie , Dead in the yard of 29, "FLM" and unfortunate in the yard to the right of 29 } Three different yards , each with their own entrance and exit's .. hence , when "FLM + U left the back yard .. Annie was Across the fence , how could they see her ! and TOD matches up with dr Phillips correct reasoning .

cheers
moonbegger

[GregBaron]

Good time for a chat...

Hi Lynn ,
Thanks for clearing that up
1) Annie was Killed around 4am , 2) At about 4.45 Richardson , did or did not see Annie's dead body when he opened the back door slightly and glanced to his left to check padlock . 3) At about 5.10am " foreign looking man" and his lady enter the yard at the back of 31 Hanbury st ( or adjacent yard ) 4) At about 5.20am Albert Cadosh enters the yard at 27 , hears but pays no real attention to the faint "No" he hears across the fence ( he is hearing the couple two fences over in the yard at 31 ) .. 5) at about 5.25 foreign looking man and his lady leave the yard and are chatting outside 29/31 Hanbury street. And then 6) Elizibeth Long walks along Hanbury St at 5.30am on her regular schedule and route work bound , and passes by "foreign looking man" and his lady , but doesn't pay them much attention . Then days later when she realises she has the opportunity to paint herself in to the popular picture of the day , she comes forward .. ( maybe a bit harsh ) And then finally 7) Dr Phillips shows up at 6.30am and gives his probable TOD as at the very latest 4.30am ...
this for me is the most likely and probable timeline of events ..

cheers ,
moonbegger.

That's a good one moonbeggar, perhaps even odd enough to be true. One question, do prostitutes and clients typically continue chatting after transacting business or even when failing to transact business?

I didn't realize they were such chatty Kathy's...........


Greg

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello MB. Thanks.

Were "FLM" and the lady, punter and unfortunate? If not, one wonders why they did not come forward. If they were, why did they not go into the yard for sex? If they were leaving the yard, why did they not see Annie?

Any particular reason for favouring the earlier TOD for Annie?

Cheers.
LC