Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Bridewell]

Inquest: only mentioned womans voice .. a faint "No"

Hi, Moonbegger,

Can you give us your source for "faint". The above is the second time you have used that word with reference to Cadosch's evidence.

According to the inquest report in the Times newspaper:

'As he returned across the yard, to the back door of his house, he heard a voice say quite close to him, "No". He believed it came from No.29.'

As it was 'quite close to him' No.29 seems far more likely than not.

He goes on to say:

'He then heard a sort of a fall against the fence, which divided his yard from No.29 . Something seemed suddenly to touch the fence.'

This is unambiguous, surely. He's referring to this specific fence and no other, isn't he?

As for Mrs Long's evidence. If she was making it all up, why was she certain of some things, but unsure of others? If the whole thing was invention, why not claim to be confident throughout? She quite clearly impressed the coroner, so where is the justification for suggesting that she lied?

I should perhaps point out that I'm not having a go at you. I also have doubts about the evidence of Cadosch, but not for the same reasons.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

lack of precision

Hello MB. Thanks.

I still don't see conflict so much as a lack of precision.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Actually, MB, you should be kind to me. I mostly see things the same way you do -- just slightly different.

I think Annie was long dead by 5:30.

I believe Cadosch's testimony. He never said what he heard involved Annie, he just told what he heard that morning and he told it on the day of her death.

Richardson I believe got dragged into this by his mother (thanks whoever mentioned that earlier in this thread) and did not dare admit to not coming by. That's why his story grew and changed.

Mrs. Long's story was just too long after the fact. On my way to work, I don't really pay attention. If I notice something unusual, I will remember the event, but the days all slide together for me and I can't be sure which day.

She could have been trying to help and had recalled seeing someone there within a day or two. Because Annie knew the house, perhaps she did sleep there in the hall occasionally. Perhaps she had been soliciting there and Mrs. Long had seen her before. . . . Who knows why she would recognize the face.

However, because of the condition of Annie's body, I don't believe it is possible Mrs. Long saw Annie at either 5:15 or 5:30 on the morning her body was discovered.

Hi Curious ..
Thought i was being kind
You do make some very good points .. is it really so inconceivable that all three witnesses here could have been misread .. or mistaken . i really dont think its that far beyond the relms of possibility ..

cheers
moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. I don't see the conflict between, "I heard 'No' but am not sure whence it came" and the Lloyd's story about falling against the fence.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,

i think the conflict comes in the guise of how precise and definative cadosh's story is in the Lloyds interview compared to his inquest statement ..

Lloyds .. he got up in the middle of the night .. unwell ..
Inquest .. he got up for work .
Lloyds .... The sound came from across the fence at 29 ..
Inquest ... I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from" ( ON WHICH SIDE IT CAME FROM )
Lloyds ... mentions a scuffle in the corner of the yard of 29
Inquest ... No mention of it ?
Lloyds .....He heard a heavy fall on the ground and the fence was touched ( exactly where body was found later)
Inquest .. just mentions a slump against the fence
Lloyds ... heard couple talking but couln'nt make out what was said .
Inquest .. only mentioned womans voice .. a faint "No"

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

conflict?

Hello MB. I don't see the conflict between, "I heard 'No' but am not sure whence it came" and the Lloyd's story about falling against the fence.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree

Actually, MB, you should be kind to me. I mostly see things the same way you do -- just slightly different.

I think Annie was long dead by 5:30.

I believe Cadosch's testimony. He never said what he heard involved Annie, he just told what he heard that morning and he told it on the day of her death.

Richardson I believe got dragged into this by his mother (thanks whoever mentioned that earlier in this thread) and did not dare admit to not coming by. That's why his story grew and changed.

Mrs. Long's story was just too long after the fact. On my way to work, I don't really pay attention. If I notice something unusual, I will remember the event, but the days all slide together for me and I can't be sure which day.

She could have been trying to help and had recalled seeing someone there within a day or two. Because Annie knew the house, perhaps she did sleep there in the hall occasionally. Perhaps she had been soliciting there and Mrs. Long had seen her before. . . . Who knows why she would recognize the face.

However, because of the condition of Annie's body, I don't believe it is possible Mrs. Long saw Annie at either 5:15 or 5:30 on the morning her body was discovered.

[moonbegger]

Hello MB, Dave. Here is a snippet from 9 September, 1888. It is from "Lloyd's Weekly."

The story was part of an interview by a Lloyd's representative.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,
Great job , digging this out . So what now does this tell us ? My take on it is Cadosh is ready and willing to ham it up and customize his story to fit in with whatever his listener wants to hear .. its certainly a far cry from ..
" I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from" ( ON WHICH SIDE IT CAME FROM )
followed by .. " I was thinking about work and didn't really pay it much attention "
It may well have also been the reporter hamming it up and filling in the blanks to sensationalise his article ( wouldn't be the first or last time ) but either way it only adds to the mud in the already murky water
i find myself holding on even tighter to my own personal belief that none of these witnesses are credible .. their stories seem to evolve further as each day passes , painting themselves more and more into the picture ... i would not be too surprised to find an article a month or so after the murder where he actually looked over the fence and saw the ripper at work !

cheers
moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

Lloyd's

Hello MB, Dave. Here is a snippet from 9 September, 1888. It is from "Lloyd's Weekly."

The story was part of an interview by a Lloyd's representative.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Moonbegger

Cadosch was used to things falling against that fence...he specifically mentions the packing cases habitually falling against it...I'm led to believe by that, he knew EXACTLY which fence he heard rattled...

The only circumstance I can think of which might alter that view is the presence of heavy smog (which totally muffles sound and deadens one's perception of where it originates), but I don't think there was any that day!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

touch

Hello MB. Thanks.

"Something seemed suddenly to touch the fence."

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks. But sound aside, if someone falls the other side of the fence, you would see a slight shaking. (This may be tried if you have a wooden fence.)

The argument about Mrs. Long could be made for any one of the witnesses.

Cheers.
LC

Hello again Lynn ,

"The argument about Mrs. Long could be made for any one of the witnesses."

Yes indeed Lynn ! There is a lot of mud in the water .. its One of the main reasons i feel that no one has been able to point a solid factual finger at any one suspect .
As far as the Fence Goes .. was it a physical impression ( Did he see the fence physically move ) or was it once again ( he heard the sound of something slump against the ( A ) fence .. it really is amazing how sound can travel given the right acoustic surroundings , and crisp morning air .. especially to someone who's not really paying much attention ( as cadosh freely admitted )

cheers
moonbegger.

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. I agree about Richardson--no problem there.

Cadosch not only heard a sound but he seemed to see something fall against the fence. 3-4 minutes earlier he heard, "No." Of course that may NOT have been Annie and her assailant, but someone seems to have been in the yard.

Mrs. Long being suborned? To what purpose?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ..

" but someone seems to have been in the yard "

And someone probably was in [ A ] yard , not necessarily in [ The ] yard .. the only thing Cadosh is certain of is that he heard a faint noise [ somewhere ] across the fence ( Given the way natural Acoustics work ) that could mean anywhere across the fence .. 1 fence , 2 fence , 3 or even 4 fences across .

"Mrs. Long being suborned? To what purpose?"

Any one of many reasons that i have already posted Lynn.. the main being i guess .. a Latter day example , As soon as someone pulls out a TV camera .. everyone wants to be in the picture .. people get more flamboyant and contrived , and everyone plays the part they think their expected to play .. a rough analogy i grant you , but accurate none the less ..


The Tree is in my garden ...Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head

cheers
Moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

shaking

Hello MB. Thanks. But sound aside, if someone falls the other side of the fence, you would see a slight shaking. (This may be tried if you have a wooden fence.)

The argument about Mrs. Long could be made for any one of the witnesses.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. I agree about Richardson--no problem there.

Cadosch not only heard a sound but he seemed to see something fall against the fence. 3-4 minutes earlier he heard, "No." Of course that may NOT have been Annie and her assailant, but someone seems to have been in the yard.

Mrs. Long being suborned? To what purpose?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ..

" but someone seems to have been in the yard "

And someone probably was in [ A ] yard , not necessarily in [ The ] yard .. the only thing Cadosh is certain of is that he heard a faint noise [ somewhere ] across the fence ( Given the way natural Acoustics work ) that could mean anywhere across the fence .. 1 fence , 2 fence , 3 or even 4 fences across .

"Mrs. Long being suborned? To what purpose?"

Any one of many reasons that i have already posted Lynn.. the main being i guess .. a Latter day example , As soon as someone pulls out a TV camera .. everyone wants to be in the picture .. people get more flamboyant and contrived , and everyone plays the part they think their expected to play .. a rough analogy i grant you , but accurate none the less ..


The Tree is in my garden ...Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head

cheers
Moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

pride

Hello Mac. Well, even in that environment people still had some pride.

Cheers.
LC