Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[moonbegger]

Hi, Dave,

I suppose it is possible Mrs. Long also knew Annie, but I don't know that that was ever established.

Mrs. Richardson is the one who mentioned she had bought crochet work from Annie because she felt sorry for her. So therefore, Annie knew the house which is why I suspect she came there to sleep in the hallway.

Since Mrs. Long made the trek every day and since Annie knew the house and was there sometime, it is possible Mrs. Long at least recognized Annie.

About what Cadosch heard:

I get the impression, strictly from memory here, that Cadosch heard a whispered conversation.

Perhaps the conversation was whether or not to go get the police or what to do. Let's say the people involved were not in any position to be able to go to the police. "No" cold have been the muffled surprise at finding the body or an emphatic "No we're not going to the police."

As the couple stared at the body, the rings are spotted and Annie certainly had no further use for them.

The bump against the fence could have been made as someone tried to skirt the body and stumbled up against the fence.

That was one reason I suggested someone other than the killer stole the rings.

Annie's body was in a tight space between the steps and the fence, getting around her without stepping on her would be awkward.

I don't know that it would take 2-3 minutes or longer. Perhaps working up the nerve to rob the body might . . ..

I don't know. I just see this as a possible explanation to reconcile the condition of the body and Cadosch's testimony.

These thoughts came to me only after it seemed clear to me that the body had been there longer than a 5:30 time of death would allow. Therefore, there must be reasonable explanations for the testimonies . . . There may be other explanations that make more sense.

curious

Hi Curious , Dave
I Think Curious nailed it here , I Couldn't have put it better myself .. It really is the only explanation that ties up all the loose ends , it even accounts for Annies torn off rings ..

Hi Bridwell
I was only joking about your " misdirection conspiracy "
As far as the " fence or three " i was referring to my earlier post about sound and Acoustics , and how certain conditions can affect one's perception.

Cheers All
Moonbegger .

[Rubyretro]

Impossible to know -it depends on how advanced you were on the step, leaning back etc; Where you glanced ; For how long ; Whether you you were lost in your own thoughts or attentive to surroundings....I couldn't say...

[curious]

Hi everyone. I watched The London Nobody Knows for the millionth time, and did a few screenshots. Most of you will have seen this 29 Hanbury Street clip before, but stopping the film allows one time to examine the details.

I believe this is the same back door that was there in 1888, and it certainly looks decrepit enough! (One would expect the fence to have been replaced multiple times.) As you can see, the open door stopped roughly in line with the steps rather than swinging farther back.

So what do you think, could the position of the door have helped obstruct Richardson's view of Annie's body if it was there at the time?

Would it make a difference if he was sitting or if he was standing?

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi, Archaic,
Very interesting photo. Thanks for sharing it.

Yes, that does look like an old bell, doesn't it. Wonder if it was?

Also, I think that the door could have blocked the view of the body if a person were standing. Especially a person concerned only with something to his right.

I also tend to think that the height of a person would have some effect on seeing or not seeing the body beneath a door. A taller person would be less likely to see under the door, it seems to me.

Also, wasn't the door on a spring? Did a person have to keep pushing against the door to keep it open? So Richardson, standing, would have his left hand pushing against the door, while looking to his right.

Guess work, totally.

curious

[curious]

But hasn't the witness testimony here always been questioned?

There has been hours and hours of discussion trying to make the times fit and trying to figure out Richardson's testimony. All really to no avail.

I still believe that the real evidence is the condition of the body and everything else must be interpreted around that.

[Archaic]

Thingy Above Door- Old Bell?

I've been wondering what that thing at top center of the door-frame is, so I might as well ask here... almost looks like an old bell.

I wondered if maybe before the backyards were fenced in- back when the neighborhood was nicer- the back door might have been used as a "tradesman's entrance" and they would have pulled a string to ring a bell?

Or is it something else entirely? Does anybody know?

Thanks very much,
Archaic

[Archaic]

London Nobody Knows- Position of Back Door

Hi everyone. I watched The London Nobody Knows for the millionth time, and did a few screenshots. Most of you will have seen this 29 Hanbury Street clip before, but stopping the film allows one time to examine the details.

I believe this is the same back door that was there in 1888, and it certainly looks decrepit enough! (One would expect the fence to have been replaced multiple times.) As you can see, the open door stopped roughly in line with the steps rather than swinging farther back.

So what do you think, could the position of the door have helped obstruct Richardson's view of Annie's body if it was there at the time?

Would it make a difference if he was sitting or if he was standing?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

Interesting though, that as soon as one (seemingly reasonably) skews the witness evidence to suit the medical evidence, such problems creep in...

All the best

Dave

[curious]

OK one step further...Mrs Long has been told Annie Chapman (who she knows, having bought items from her) is dead, and is thus predisposed to identify her as the woman she saw at 0515 or thereabouts...she correctly identifies Annie Chapman in the mortuary but is mistaken in that this isn't in fact the woman she saw on Saturday morning...



The body (which has been there for an hour or two) is discovered - prostitute issues a muffled "no" in horror...so far, so good...we're square with Cadosch's testimony, square with the medical evidence, and square with Jack's propensity to murder in the hours of darkness...

And then what?

Logic would say the prostitute faints in horror and pitches forward against the fence...However, Cadosch says "No" was heard on his 0525 visit to the yard...he then goes back indoors, and revisits the yard at 0528 and it is only on the second visit he hears the thump...how can this be reconciled folks? Even discarding one witnesses testimony and slightly bending anothers, it still doesn't seem to tie up...something hit the fence some minutes after "no"


Dave

Hi, Dave,

I suppose it is possible Mrs. Long also knew Annie, but I don't know that that was ever established.

Mrs. Richardson is the one who mentioned she had bought crochet work from Annie because she felt sorry for her. So therefore, Annie knew the house which is why I suspect she came there to sleep in the hallway.

Since Mrs. Long made the trek every day and since Annie knew the house and was there sometime, it is possible Mrs. Long at least recognized Annie.

About what Cadosch heard:

I get the impression, strictly from memory here, that Cadosch heard a whispered conversation.

Perhaps the conversation was whether or not to go get the police or what to do. Let's say the people involved were not in any position to be able to go to the police. "No" cold have been the muffled surprise at finding the body or an emphatic "No we're not going to the police."

As the couple stared at the body, the rings are spotted and Annie certainly had no further use for them.

The bump against the fence could have been made as someone tried to skirt the body and stumbled up against the fence.

That was one reason I suggested someone other than the killer stole the rings.

Annie's body was in a tight space between the steps and the fence, getting around her without stepping on her would be awkward.

I don't know that it would take 2-3 minutes or longer. Perhaps working up the nerve to rob the body might . . ..

I don't know. I just see this as a possible explanation to reconcile the condition of the body and Cadosch's testimony.

These thoughts came to me only after it seemed clear to me that the body had been there longer than a 5:30 time of death would allow. Therefore, there must be reasonable explanations for the testimonies . . . There may be other explanations that make more sense.

curious

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Dave. That IS difficult to harmonise.

On the other hand, if the strangulation began just after, "No" it should have been finished in the time it took to hear the thump. Of course, I allow for some struggle.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Conspiracy?

Hi Bridewell ,

I must say , i find it hilarious that you went through my whole post and decided to pick the bones out of my after thought .. is this some sort of misdirection conspiracy going on here

cheers big ears
moonbegger

The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree

I wasn't aware it was an afterthought. I didn't "pick the bones out of" anything. I simply asked a question, which was:

Do you think 'a yard or three down' is compatible with 'quite close to him'?

No, I'm not conspiring with anyone.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Nag Nag Nag...

OK this has been playing away quietly at the back of my mind and I need to get it off my chest...

Suppose we accept that Richardson is an unreliable witness (put up to testifying by his Mum who thinks he checked out the yard, when he skived off that day, and who subsequently embroiders, badly, on his tale)...

Then suppose by assuming we can synchronise the testimony of Cadosch and Mrs Long, by asserting she heard the quarter hour struck and thought it was the half-hour...

OK one step further...Mrs Long has been told Annie Chapman (who she knows, having bought items from her) is dead, and is thus predisposed to identify her as the woman she saw at 0515 or thereabouts...she correctly identifies Annie Chapman in the mortuary but is mistaken in that this isn't in fact the woman she saw on Saturday morning...

So we have another prostitute and her client making their way into the back yard of Number 29 for a quicky...

The body (which has been there for an hour or two) is discovered - prostitute issues a muffled "no" in horror...so far, so good...we're square with Cadosch's testimony, square with the medical evidence, and square with Jack's propensity to murder in the hours of darkness...

And then what?

Logic would say the prostitute faints in horror and pitches forward against the fence...However, Cadosch says "No" was heard on his 0525 visit to the yard...he then goes back indoors, and revisits the yard at 0528 and it is only on the second visit he hears the thump...how can this be reconciled folks? Even discarding one witnesses testimony and slightly bending anothers, it still doesn't seem to tie up...something hit the fence some minutes after "no"

OK this isn't a very constructive posting, but as I said, I needed to get it off my chest!

Best wishes all

Dave

[moonbegger]

Too funny

Hi Bridewell ,

I must say , i find it hilarious that you went through my whole post and decided to pick the bones out of my after thought .. is this some sort of misdirection conspiracy going on here

cheers big ears
moonbegger

The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree

[Bridewell]

Which leaves us with cadosh , who clearly heard something , Who knows , maybe a low life riffling through dead Annies pockets while his or her freind protests " No ", or maybe even another couple a yard or three down ?

Hi MB,

'As he returned across the yard, to the back door of his house, he heard a voice say quite close to him, "No" '

Do you think 'a yard or three down' is compatible with 'quite close to him'?

Regards, Bridewell.

[moonbegger]

Hi Dave / Curious
I guess it all depends on how much weight and credibility we assign to each of the pivotal players on this particular morning .. once we start to chip away at the timing issue's , as Dave rightly points out , we are in danger of chipping away too deep and possibly destroying something of value that has been set in stone for years .. I have a good friend who works out in the badlands of Alberta , Canada , excavating Dinosaur bones, the main focus and priority should always be the bone itself , and not so much the 65 million year old rock encasing it .. i guess you all get the cut of my jib here .
But back to hanbury street, and who saw what , and when they saw it ..
Time is the one thing that can, and should be relied upon without fail ( unless you got a crap watch, like me The combination of medical science and time are the tools we should be using to unearth this monster . Not people , People make mistakes , no matter how observant or truthful or in control we think we are .. we crash cars , forget birthdays , anniversaries , names , we think we see Big Foots , and UFO's and the loch ness monster ( and all that is just me ) And so in light of such compelling Medical and Time Evidence at hand , lets not just disregard it and rely solely on what someone thinks they may have seen, or what they think they may have heard , at a time they thought it was . like i mentioned early
Yes she did quite clearly impress the Coroner , But so too did Richardson ? And when you loosen Richardson's pivitol strangle hold on the inquest .. it automatically adds a ton of extra weight behind Dr Phillips original TOD , which in turn renders Longs ID of Annie and her killer redundent , along with all the timing issues .. which leaves us with cadosh , who clearly heard something , Who knows , maybe a low life riffling through dead Annies pockets while his or her freind protests " No ", or maybe even another couple a yard or three down ?

cheers .
moonbegger.

[curious]

Hi Curious

Like Mrs Long I walk (just over half a mile in my case) every morning at a regular time (to catch a bus)...been doing so for over 20 years...It takes me just seven minutes and I get used to seeing the same people in the same places most days, and many of them I greet like familiar old friends...Like you though, some mornings I'm on autopilot and it's all fairly automatic...

However, other mornings, if something odd occurs perhaps, or I bump into the local loonie (god forbid 'cos he's a pain!), or if I run late and have to hurry (or if I miss the bus), then I do tend to wake up and notice more...and what's more can recall too - for example I can tell you the local loonie nabbed me last Thursday, a day I was a little late anyway, and pursued me all the way to the bus stop...and I can recall seeing the Jack Russel lady that day (she was also running about 5 minutes late)...but not two toddlers lady with her pushchair, nor Peter from the Nursing Home, nor Marianne the night shift nurse....However the young lady who works in the fashion shop in Chichester was waiting at the bus stop (unusual because Wednesday and Thursday are her days off) and smiled at me in sympathy...

So I'd guess it depends...Mrs Long may've heard the quarter strike and assumed she was running late - so she just might have disengaged autopilot that day...who knows?

As I stated, it's tempting to disregard her, but start dropping the testimony of too many first hand witnesses and where does any of the testimony go? The whole case dissolves...Personally, as regards reliability, I don't much rate Pearly Poll, Richardson, Schwartz or Hutchinson (not to mention Packer, but for gods sake don't tell Tom!)... but I feel most uncomfortable departing cleanly from them without really solid reason. I'd rather note my doubts, file them away, and see what else comes along...

All the best

Dave

Hi, Dave,
Our work commutes are very different. I drive about 10 miles and almost never pass anyone I know. And we must each decide how this case makes sense to us individually.

curious