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  • #1

    Schwartz, a fraud?

    Hello Casebook,

    There has been recent discussion on the thread Folie a deux, and I do believe it has gone off topic a bit. The main focus now is if the sighting by Isreal Schwartz is reliable or not.

    I have a special problem with his testimony because I see many holes in his story.

    For example, how did he know the sighting was at 12:45? I do believe he would have a little trouble finding out the time in the fearful rush he was in. Also why did he describe Elizabeth's screams as "she screamed three times and not too loud". This statement makes no sence if you believe she was in any danger at all.

    If I may use an example, Fisherman on the Folie a deux thread offered this possibility.

    Now, transfer this reasoning to Berner Street, and make the supposition that the man who walks up to Stride is the same man that gave her the flower and kissed her in the doorway an hour earlier. He now finds her, seemingly soliciting, and decides to drag her away with him. They exchange a couple of words:

    "What are you doing, Lizzie? You cannot stand here like this!"
    "Come off it, I do what I choose to"
    "No, you donīt. Come here!"

    He pulls, she resists, he looses his grip, and she falls. He calls out in frustration:

    "Lizzie!"

    Realizing that there are people around (Schwartz and Pipeman) she lowers her voice:

    "No, no, no!"


    Then why, if this may have happened, did Schwartz run away when he realized he was being followed? Becuase I believe his brain was playing tricks on itself. I believe he saw only a fraction of what really happened and his brain filled in the holes with what it would expect to see and removed any pointless details. I also do not, for one minute believe he just stood there and watched it. I believe he saw a glimps of something he didn't understand fully. Again, this is only a possibility.

    It was also mentioned that Schwartz may have adopted a big city "casual walk-past" additude. How is this so if he was an immigrant? Obviously this isnt probable becuase according to him, he passed what he described as a tipsy man approaching the "woman at the enterance of the allyway", he turned around once he heard a quarrel.

    Also why were there differences in each story he told? When he told police his account, no man with a knife appears. However, in the October 1st account he does mention a knife weilding man. This is enough to raise suspicion. Also why did the simple act of either Liz being thrown on the ground(police version) and pulled into the yard(star) appear.

    Appearently this may be a tale woven by the IWCM to divert suspiceon away from them.

    Any thoughts?
    Washington Irving:

    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

    Stratford-on-Avon
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Hi
    I suspect the correct statement was to the police and the newspapers tried to put a more dramatic slant on things with the knife.
    I do believe though that he must have had good reason to believe that he was followed,especially as he would have been walking hurriedly away himself.
    Was this other man gaining on him?
    Human instinct perhaps?
    You can lead a horse to water.....

    Comment

    • #3
      As to knowing the time, Schwartz and Diemschutz approached the IWEC from the same direction, so perhaps they both got the time from the tobacconist's clock at the corner of Berner Street and Commercial Road. To walk from the corner to the club takes about a minute.

      Comment

      • #4
        Lizzie sounds enough like Lipski that it's possible he made a mistake on that. I never thought of that before

        Comment

        • #5
          Hello Stem,

          First and formost, welcome to the forums. To you assesment, it is possible that the "Star" did a little "yellow journalism" but perhaps it is true. Maybe he did change his story a bit. It makes you think. As for whether he was scared or not, yes I believe he was, and I am of the opinion that this played alot into his interpretation of the "quarrel".

          Hello Maurice,

          That might be, but if they didn't look towards the clock...? I don't know whether they would be able to read it in the dark. As you know, the East End was badly lit. Would you happen to know any light sources(apart from building light) in the immediate area. Obviously the yard was pitch black only receiving minimal lighting from the club.

          Hello Belinda,

          That plus the fact that he was an immigrant, it does seem logical that he could have mistaken "Lizzie" for "Lipsky", like I said before, this might be another case of his brain playing him for a fool.

          Yours truly
          Last edited by corey123; 09-01-2010, 03:06 AM.
          Washington Irving:

          "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

          Stratford-on-Avon

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by corey123 View Post
            That might be, but if they didn't look towards the clock...? I don't know whether they would be able to read it in the dark. As you know, the East End was badly lit.
            Corey,

            Well, we know Diemschutz was able to read the clock because he said so. If he could read it, so could Schwartz.

            Comment

            • #7
              Hello Maurice,

              I have trouble taking these two accounts at face value. The both of them seem very fishy. If he could'nt see the body at first, how then can he see a clock? Unless there was a light source greater than in the yard.

              Yours truly
              Washington Irving:

              "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

              Stratford-on-Avon

              Comment

              • #8
                Corey,

                I have no idea of what you're talking about. What has the readability of a clock at the corner of Commercial and Berner got to do with the ambient light in Dutfield's Yard?

                Comment

                • #9
                  Hello Maurice,

                  Nothing at all. I mearly have trouble taking their accounts at face value.
                  Washington Irving:

                  "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                  Stratford-on-Avon

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    The whole point of this thread is to discuss the possiblility of the two men, tha is Isreal Schwartz and Louis Deimschitz, that there stories were either streched or entierly thought up to help the IWMC stay clear from suspicion.

                    Yours truly
                    Washington Irving:

                    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                    Stratford-on-Avon

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Hi Corey, I absolutely agree with your assement of 'the brain filling in gaps'
                      and the reliablility of the timing.

                      However, you mentioned the 'fear' being the important bit (on the other thread) -as I feel for the Lawende, Levy Harris scenario. Schwartz may have wrongly interpreted details -but he clearly felt fear. This is an 'animal' reflex -like Harris, Schwartz probably wasn't wrong.

                      Liz evidently (if we believe the testimony-and I do, otherwise she'd have screamed for her life), didn't feel the same fear -the 'threat' from the two men was directed at him, not her.

                      The chasing bit seems to be pretty concrete and unequivocal. It's hard to see how he could mis interpret it -unless he was an outright lier.

                      Conclusion: BSM didn't murder Liz -he wanted to take her away from soliciting next to the club, but she refused to be budged. The two men were there hating the men inside the club, and they identified Schwartz as a lone vulnerable Jew when he passed, and so turned their attention away from Liz and onto Schwartz.
                      http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        may the Schwartz be with you

                        Hello Corey. One main concern that anyone must have with the Schwartz testimony is this.

                        1. The BS event purportedly witnessed by IS occurred at 12:45.

                        2. The interaction of the amorous couple reported by Brown occurred at 12:45.

                        3. Given the truth of IS and his BS event, IF Brown is telling the truth and reporting accurately, THEN he should have witnessed the BS event.

                        4. Brown did not witness the BS event.

                        5. Either Brown is NOT telling the truth or he is mistaken (reporting inaccurately).

                        6. If Brown is not telling the truth, what is his motive for prevarication?

                        7. If Brown is mistaken (putting the amorous couple as Liz and companion near Dutfield's Yard) he is likely off by a block (confusing another couple about a block away).

                        8. The BS event and subsequent "chase" should have been visible even a block away (and how far can one hear leather soled shoes as they beat a hasty retreat?)

                        9. See under #4.

                        10. Therefore it is quite probable that the BS event was precisely that--a BS event.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Hi Lynn!

                          To take into account:

                          -We do not know how accurate the times given are.
                          -We know that Brown stated that he was inside the chandlerīs shop for three or four minutes.
                          -We know that he purportedly saw Stride on his way TO the shop, whereas he saw the young couple on his way FROM the shop, some minutes later.

                          This would be useful in judging things, not least taken together with the fact that Brown was not totally sure that the woman he saw was Stride.

                          The best,
                          Fisherman

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
                            Hi Corey, I absolutely agree with your assement of 'the brain filling in gaps'
                            and the reliablility of the timing.

                            However, you mentioned the 'fear' being the important bit (on the other thread) -as I feel for the Lawende, Levy Harris scenario. Schwartz may have wrongly interpreted details -but he clearly felt fear. This is an 'animal' reflex -like Harris, Schwartz probably wasn't wrong.

                            Liz evidently (if we believe the testimony-and I do, otherwise she'd have screamed for her life), didn't feel the same fear -the 'threat' from the two men was directed at him, not her.

                            The chasing bit seems to be pretty concrete and unequivocal. It's hard to see how he could mis interpret it -unless he was an outright lier.

                            Conclusion: BSM didn't murder Liz -he wanted to take her away from soliciting next to the club, but she refused to be budged. The two men were there hating the men inside the club, and they identified Schwartz as a lone vulnerable Jew when he passed, and so turned their attention away from Liz and onto Schwartz.
                            Hello Lesley,

                            Thanks for that respons. Yes it is ppssible that he didn't misinterpret anything. However, I find this highly unlikely.
                            Washington Irving:

                            "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                            Stratford-on-Avon

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Brownout

                              Hello Fish.

                              "Brown was not totally sure that the woman he saw was Stride."

                              Absolutely! In fact, I think it was NOT. And that is why I proposed the argument along the lines I did. I think he saw the OTHER couple.

                              In my feeble mind, the only testimony from that night (regarding Berner st) with which I am completely comfortable comes from PC Smith.

                              Still, Brown WAS in the area. Yet, no BS event.

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment

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