Schwartz, a fraud?

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"I agree with you, Fisherman, it makes more sense that the man (or one of the men) spending the evening of Sept. 30 on the streets with Stride gave her the flower. But he might have stolen it, or simply picked it from a square or flower pot at a window sill."

It was, by all accounts, a rose arranged over some maidenhair fern, Maria. And since it was said that it was white and red, the notion seems to be that the fern may have been sprayed with something called baby´s breath, a popular thing at that time. All in all, it adds up to an elaborate, decorative arrangement in a small size, and not just a flower, stolen from some flowerpot.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Frank van Oploo:

"Thanks for the compliment, Fish, and good to see we agree!"

You´re welcome, Frank!


"Perhaps it would be better to use the package of cachous, which she held in her left hand??"

Perhaps so, but then we must realize that the trickier part is to pick cachous from the pack, using your thumb and index finger. And if she held the packet in her LEFT hand, then that is a good pointer to her being right-handed. Not a bad suggestion, actually.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

I always knew I was special, FM!

Thats's a given Frank.....I mean...the United Provinces' political system was the envy of the world once upon a time.....and then you have Spinoza and Erasmus....

The Church of England (and it follows English values and life) is built upon Erasmus and the every day world as opposed to Luther's dogma....so we owe a lot to the Dutch......

But seriously, I don’t think that’s fair. Just because you do it doesn’t mean that you’re part of 99% and I’m part of only 1%. If that would in fact be 99%. Furthermore, watches are put around wrists, so you simply don’t have a lot of choice as you only have 2 of those: if you use the one hand, you are only left with the other wrist to put it on. This is not true for pinning whatever on chests: whichever hand you use, you still have 2 sides of the chest at your disposal.

Frank...I think it is fair...because you have the option to go left or right with a watch...regardless of number of hands....the point is what's easier to navigate.....and for a right handed person it's easier to place the watch on the left wrist....just as it's easier to place a flower on the left hand side of someone else/your right hand side......it's just a natural thing to do.....you ever play darts Frank? you havde some decent players over there...watch how a darts player holds a dart....just to the right...because it's comfortable...a right handed person always goes to his right...given any situation.....

[mariab]

Thank you for the precise information on Stride's flower, Fisherman. It makes sense that it might have been sprayed in the Victorian fashion that you describe, because I wondered myself about the description not fitting at all a geranium, which is NOT multi-coloured, and which consists of different bunches of “stems“, so it doesn't hold very long on someone's dress, before inevitably falling to pieces. Before you explained that the flower might have been sprayed with colour, I was assuming that it might have been a carnation – pink carnations are multi-coloured, as in pink and white.

To Fleedwood Mac:
Erasmus is also a poor man's fellowship for undergraduate students to “exchange“ all over Europe. But the money is an absolute joke: 300-€ per month... (Try to live on that, esp. in a big city!)

[FrankO]

....so we owe a lot to the Dutch......

(Although we were responsible for some nasty things too,) thanks for the compliment, FM!

I think it is fair...because you have the option to go left or right with a watch...regardless of number of hands....the point is what's easier to navigate.....and for a right handed person it's easier to place the watch on the left wrist....just as it's easier to place a flower on the left hand side of someone else/your right hand side.....

My point wasn’t that right-handers aren’t inclined to wear their watches on their left wrist (they undoubtedly are), but rather that this doesn’t mean that right-handers would pin whatever on the left side of someone standing opposite them. Because first of all, the pinners very likely wouldn’t use just one hand. And secondly, things would also depend on the person who’d be at the receiving end. After all, they might not like it on their left side.

Anyhow, as to the exercise of trying to determine left- or right-handedness in Stride or her killer based on the flower pinned to her dress, we can’t possibly read anything at all of value into it. That remains the bottom line.

All the best,
Frank

[corey123]

Hi Abby, I'm pretty sure the cachous didn't come out of Liz's pocket until she was in the yard and standing.

Corey. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not aware of anything in the evidence for you to support your conclusion with.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

How about Logic?

[Scorpio]

I think the murder of Liz Stride should be awarded the accolade of " great British murder mystery " . The details of this event seem to inspire endless conjecture and the chances are she died as a result of a domestic, which is sad, but not terribly interesting from a criminological point of view i have to say, and was not murdered by the legendary Jack .

[corey123]

Scorpio,

On what evidence do you suggest she wasn't murdered by "Jack the Ripper"?

[Rubyretro]

This Thread has moved on at a fair pace -and I do actually have a 'full life' to fit in (so I usually just concentrate on the Hutchinson Posts) -so I missed a fair bit of the conversation. Reading over it, my thoughts are :

a) the whole scenario doesn't appear so very complicated and difficult to read' to me
b) If Liz is included in the 'canonical five' , then that's because she fits the MO of JtR
c) Everything would suggest that this known Prostitute was soliciting
d) I don't believe that JtR's way of getting the women to go with him to a quiet spot was by using robbery as a 'ruse' -it was easy for him offering money as a male customer to get a Prostitute alone.
e) He certainly 'took back' his money in every other murder -why not Liz's ?
(and a bit more money besides); She is the only woman that would appear to have 'extra' money on the night she was killed.
f) BSM does not correspond to JtR's known comportment in any way. I don't think that robbery was his first motive, but since he had an ascendant over Liz, he possibly took the opportunity to divest her of her night's earnings.
g) Cadoche most probably never heard Annie saying 'No!' softly ( he said something like ' I heard voices, and a woman saying 'No!' SOMEWHERE. To be honest, I was in a hurry to get to work and didn't pay any attention to where the noises came from').
h) Schwartz's testimony sounds perfectly limpid and there is no reason to
take it as a 'conspiracy'
i) If Schwartz was discounted as a serious HtR witness, that is because no
one believed that he was witnessing JtR at work -BSM was never taken as being 'Jack'.
j) the flower and cachous are picturesque as details, but meaningless as clues.
k) the Club meeting was probably secondary to Liz (I mean secondary to the Pub, but also a source of customers)
L) ...it does have some things in common with other JtR murder sites though..The club -taken together with the Club in proximity to Mitre Squareand the GSG might be a clue to JtR..

[lynn cates]

petitio principii

Hello Ruby.

"a) the whole scenario doesn't appear so very complicated and difficult to read' to me"

Depends on how many assumptions one wishes to make.

"b) If Liz is included in the 'canonical five' , then that's because she fits the MO of JtR"

And what was that MO?

"c) Everything would suggest that this known Prostitute was soliciting"

Known? Perhaps you mean registered? She was. And what, precisely, is included in the everything? I would like to find even one thing.

"d) I don't believe that JtR's way of getting the women to go with him to a quiet spot was by using robbery as a 'ruse' -it was easy for him offering money as a male customer to get a Prostitute alone."

Why do you believe this? And why do you believe in JTR?

"e) He certainly 'took back' his money in every other murder -why not Liz's ?
(and a bit more money besides); She is the only woman that would appear to have 'extra' money on the night she was killed."

Whence the certainty?

"f) BSM does not correspond to JtR's known comportment in any way. I don't think that robbery was his first motive, but since he had an ascendant over Liz, he possibly took the opportunity to divest her of her night's earnings."

What was JTR's "known" comportment?

"g) Cadoche most probably never heard Annie saying 'No!' softly ( he said something like ' I heard voices, and a woman saying 'No!' SOMEWHERE. To be honest, I was in a hurry to get to work and didn't pay any attention to where the noises came from')."

Why are we discussing Annie Chapman with Liz Stride? If you like like conjecture, well and good--I like it myself. But, based on forensics, it is little more than that.

"h) Schwartz's testimony sounds perfectly limpid and there is no reason to
take it as a 'conspiracy''

Nor is there a good reason to take it as true.

"i) If Schwartz was discounted as a serious [J]tR witness, that is because no
one believed that he was witnessing JtR at work -BSM was never taken as being 'Jack'.'

But I think that was the idea--or, better, Liz's assailant.

"j) the flower and cachous are picturesque as details, but meaningless as clues.'

Indeed? The cachous tell us that there were no acrobatics involved in Liz's death.

"k) the Club meeting was probably secondary to Liz (I mean secondary to the Pub, but also a source of customers)"

Well, if Liz liked to give freebies, you are correct. I agree.

"L) ...it does have some things in common with other JtR murder sites though..The club -taken together with the Club in proximity to Mitre Square and the GSG might be a clue to JtR."

Why are they JTR murder sites?

Question: what do we call it when the conclusion is placed in the premises?

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

The problem with Schwartz's testimony is that if you exclude it all the other testimony's fit into place.

I swing towards Schwartz lying, but of course no where near 100% sure.

The oddest thing is that Schwartz did not appear at the inquest, for a man that supposedly (considered at the time) to have seen the killer thats baffling.

[Abby Normal]

The problem with Schwartz's testimony is that if you exclude it all the other testimony's fit into place.

I swing towards Schwartz lying, but of course no where near 100% sure.

The oddest thing is that Schwartz did not appear at the inquest, for a man that supposedly (considered at the time) to have seen the killer thats baffling.

Agree, its baffling.

But why would a someone relatively new in a foreign country lie in a major murder investigation. Think about it-The last thing they would want to do is start any trouble for themselves or thier family.

[Garza]

Agree, its baffling.

But why would a someone relatively new in a foreign country lie in a major murder investigation. Think about it-The last thing they would want to do is start any trouble for themselves or thier family.

<Shrugs>, we do not know the character of Schwartz. It could be he wanted to deflect blame for the killings from the jews or it could be just plain old attention seeking, 15 minutes of fame, could be alot of reasons. Of course he might be telling the truth.

But I invite you all to take out Schwartz's testimony from the list of events and see how surprisingly smoothly it all begins to run. No shouting, no "quiet" screaming, no running chase past houses which would alert the lots of people in their homes in narrow cobbled streets, no pipeman, no BS man. Just a prostitute quietly looking for clients.

Occum's Razor.

[Abby Normal]

<Shrugs>, we do not know the character of Schwartz. It could be he wanted to deflect blame for the killings from the jews or it could be just plain old attention seeking, 15 minutes of fame, could be alot of reasons. Of course he might be telling the truth.

But I invite you all to take out Schwartz's testimony from the list of events and see how surprisingly smoothly it all begins to run. No shouting, no "quiet" screaming, no running chase past houses which would alert the lots of people in their homes in narrow cobbled streets, no pipeman, no BS man. Just a prostitute quietly looking for clients.

Occum's Razor.

I agree-would be much smoother with out him. yet there he is. Tis a quandry.

[Garza]

I agree-would be much smoother with out him. yet there he is. Tis a quandry.

Yes, hence it is more likely to be untruthful. The simplest explanation, all things being equal, tends to be the correct one. The simplest explanation for all the complication of the events of Berner Street is that Schwartz lied, or at least embellishing the hell out of what he saw.

Packer gave evidence, unverified by others and even contradicting others testimony, so does Schwartz only on a lesser scale.

No one saw Schwartz or heard the BS man, not Mrs Mortimer poking her beak out every 5 mins less than 10 metres up the street, nor the couple canoodling JUST round the corner. Nor did Mrs D. in the kitchen of the IWMC with the window and door fully open.

Anyway just my opinion