Schwartz, a fraud?

[Rubyretro]

he seems to have badgered her

and foxed us all

[Hunter]

So my question is this: What was so attractive about the club? Now the solicitation camp at least has the (to my mind) feeble excuse that Liz was using the club as a base of operations for solicitation (many potential clients, a fence to hide behind, etc). But I can't see what to do with the area as a base for young lovers.

(Note: this does not preclude young lovers--or even BS and Liz--from being near and becoming romantic. But I'm not sure why one would come back there after buying flowers.)

Why would she come back there after buying Flowers?
Let's see... She was waiting at 1 in the morning for a job interview. Makes more sense than going to the gentleman's home during daylight hours.

She was waiting for a date at 1 in the morning. Yes, that's a likely time to get the night started.

Maybe she was spying for the Special Branch... Bet she got a lot of information standing outside of the club instead of being invited in.

Then there's the feeble excuse. She resorted back to what she had to do when her meal ticket was no longer with her... what she was hauled into Thames Magistrate Court for just the previous year...what Thomas Bates and the woman from Tiger Bay admitted that she did when desperate and broke... what the police knew her for... why she was seen with several different men in a short time in the same area ( unless this guy had a hat collection)... why she had 6 doss when she started the night but was flat broke when found dead... and, oh yes, she's found with her throat cut in the darkest part of a narrow alley with no sign of a struggle...
Naw, I like the other three choices better. The evidence is clearly against the last one.

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello Hunter. All 4 possibilities fall flat.

Job interview. No, if there was one, it was in the past.

Date? You mean a go at a music hall? Don't think so. (Going home with someone? I DO think so.)

Spying? Although I'd be shocked if she had not picked up loose change for "keeping an ear open" I doubt it was that night. You see, the meeting had already broken up and so there was little left to do. (Unless, of course, Tum Balalaika were a coded language.)

Soliciting? Hmmm, let's see, she takes care of a client for 4d, then they head for Commercial rd to pick up a flower (talk about satisfied customers!). Now she marches all the way back for another 4d and a bit of fern. Yes, this is definitely best. I think I'm converted.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Couldn't that flower have been pinned to the coat of one of Liz's clients ?
I can imagine someone turning out of rhe pub earlier, and having not quite
enough money left for Liz's services...but she liked the look of him and said
"Ok...the money you've got, and throw in the flower, and it's a deal !"

[Fisherman]

I believe, Rubyretro, that such a flower would have been a female accessoire altogether. If I´m wrong, I´m sure that somebody will correct me.

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

I believe, Rubyretro, that such a flower would have been a female accessoire altogether. If I´m wrong, I´m sure that somebody will correct me.

The best I can find is that men would wear a flower in the lapel of a frock coat, with a top hat. By the 1880s young men preferred to wear a cutaway 'newmarket' coat -and older and more conservative men the frock coat.

No idea of how showy these boutonnières could be, and no idea of how big
the flower pinned to Liz's coat actually was in reality. It's a shame that we don't know if the flower was fresh or slightly wilted -suggesting that it had been bought a long time before or not.

[Fisherman]

Rubyretro:

"The best I can find is that men would wear a flower in the lapel of a frock coat, with a top hat."

These flowers would be single geraniums or such, I believe, whereas Liz´ditto seemingly was a more elaborate one. It was described as a red rose backed by maidenhair fern. Apparently it was also fashionable in them days to spray the fern with something called Baby´s breath, that made it look silvery or whitish.
All in all, I think that such a type of flower was designed to be carried by women, and not by men. But, as I said before, I would be happy to get more information on the issue, should I be wrong.

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

I should love to know as well -hoping someone will reply.

I really can't believe that Liz bought the flower herself...difficult to believe that someone would buy
a really low class and middle aged prostitute a flower, when he had only to offer the small going rate.
Difficult to believe that a flower seller would work Berner Street..and difficult to believe that someone would not only spend the cash on her, but go back to Commercial Road. It's also difficult to believe that you wouldn't pay for a flower at the beginning of the evening or day -so as to enjoy wearing it for the maximum time.

It seems to me that someone already had that flower, and didn't need it anymore.

Maybe she knew a flower seller who lived in the area (another woman), who gave it to her bcause it was left over and not fresh enough to sell the next day ?

[Fisherman]

Well, Ruby, much as your questions are valid, a few points may have to be made.

"I really can't believe that Liz bought the flower herself"

Nor do I - but I cannot rule it out, of course.

"difficult to believe that someone would buy
a really low class and middle aged prostitute a flower, when he had only to offer the small going rate"

"Traces of beauty were still about her..." That was what Walter Dew wrote about the dead Liz Stride. She was not a bad-looking girl, all in all. And you would be surprised to learn how many low-class girls have had flowers bought for them!

"Difficult to believe that a flower seller would work Berner Street"

Indeed! Just like it is difficult to believe that a prostitute would...! But since we have a gap in time between Marshalls sighting and Smith´s ditto, there would have been plenty of time to find another venue to buy that flower.

"difficult to believe that you wouldn't pay for a flower at the beginning of the evening or day -so as to enjoy wearing it for the maximum time."

Of course - but how do we know that Marshalls man met Liz before 11.45? We don´t, do we? And if you want to buy a lady a flower, it´s good sense to have the lady around as you do so.

"It seems to me that someone already had that flower, and didn't need it anymore.
Maybe she knew a flower seller who lived in the area (another woman), who gave it to her bcause it was left over and not fresh enough to sell the next day?"

Perhaps - but I bet statistics are in favour of the flower being a gift.

the best,
Fisherman

[corey123]

Hi Corey

I beleive IS story to be basically trustworthy. If anything he lied about it might be pipeman to help explain his running away.

Also why did he describe Elizabeth's screams as "she screamed three times and not too loud". This statement makes no sence if you believe she was in any danger at all.

Many possibles:
He only did not hear it loud becuase of noise from singing from the club and/or rain/muggy night.
She was yelling with the intention of telling the man to stop but not screaming for help.
She had a sore throat or something, physically could not scream loud.



IS may have come upon the two just as JtR was returning to Stride after finally being rebuffed by her (after spending alot of his time and effort to get her into a dark alley unsuccessfully) and "losing it" and attacking Stride in public. After he scares off IS he pulls her into the yard and finishes it(throat cutting) but bolts before mutilations.

Just a frustrated JtR with a reluctant woman who loses his cool- not any need for conspiracies.

BTW when I first heard of IS testamony one of the first thing that came to my mind is that he may have actually witnessed the throat cutting without realizing it. If this is the case, the not screaming loudly may be becuase her throat was already cut. JtR then pulled her into the yard but was scared away by LD or other club members before mutilations. I think my previous
scenario is more likely, however.

Hi Abby,

I have a few problems with your assesement.

First off.

I beleive IS story to be basically trustworthy. If anything he lied about it might be pipeman to help explain his running away.

You believe. That doesn't mean it is. I believe that he is false. Again that doesn't mean it is. Im not so sure the case being that he lied to anyone, just that he didn't see everything that happened and fillled in the holes himself.

Many possibles:
He only did not hear it loud becuase of noise from singing from the club and/or rain/muggy night.
She was yelling with the intention of telling the man to stop but not screaming for help.
She had a sore throat or something, physically could not scream loud.

First of all it wasn't raining very hard that night. That would in no way inhibit Schwartz from hearing her scream. Nor would the noise from the club, which was almost empty by the time she was dead anyhow. I agree with you suggestion that she was in no dangher, this is the point I am trying to make.

And lastly there is no evidence that she had a sore throat, and even if she did, this too would not inhibit her from screaming for her life if she need be.

Just a frustrated JtR with a reluctant woman who loses his cool- not any need for conspiracies.

This only works if you think BS is "Jack the Ripper".

BTW when I first heard of IS testamony one of the first thing that came to my mind is that he may have actually witnessed the throat cutting without realizing it. If this is the case, the not screaming loudly may be becuase her throat was already cut. JtR then pulled her into the yard but was scared away by LD or other club members before mutilations. I think my previous
scenario is more likely, however

You do realize once her throat was cut, she would be able to makew no sounds whatsoever apart from the weird gurgling sound you expect to hear when ones, carotidu artery was severed.

Yours truly

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Fish. Why could not:

1. Liz have worked Saturday at the lodging house and collected her fee?

2. Liz, early in the evening, have taken her fee and purchased a flower and cachous? (Recall, she had no money on her when found.)

3. Liz have done this in anticipation of a 12:30 meeting with a chap who was visiting the club?

And why could not Marshall be mistaken about his sighting? Woman had no flower.)

Isn't this a neat solution to a complex problem?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

It´s a solution that rules against Marshalls testimony, and therefore I do not buy it, Lynn.

The Times:

"Was she wearing a flower when you saw her? -No."

Daily Telegraph:

"I recognise her both by her face and dress. She did not then have a flower in her breast."

Morning Advertiser:

"I recognised the deceased was the same woman by her face and her dress. She was not wearing a flower in her breast."

No matter how many papers you read, and no matter who´s take on the inquest you use, we are left with the same thing: Marshall is dead sure that she had no flower when he saw her! And he saw her for a very long period of time, and witnessed to have taken her in in some detail, face, clothing and all.

"She did not then have a flower in her breast". He is NOT wawering in any respect, he does not find the coroners question hard to answer, he leaves no room for a mistake on his behalf. The flower was NOT there at 11.45.

AFTER that, Liz may have bought and paid for the flower herself, as well as the cachous, of course. But in a scenario where we have somebody treating Stride the way Marshalls man did, kissing, cuddling, putting his arm around her neck and all, before heading south at a low stroll pace, it becomes a very tempting suggestion that the flower was a gift.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

yield not to temptation

Hello Fish. Yes, quite tempting--but I shan't yield just yet.

I haven't the slightest doubt that Marshall never wavered. Nor have I a doubt that he thought he saw Liz. But, as has been pointed out before, another witness thought Liz her sister whilst 2 witnesses were convinced they had seen MJK the morning after she was killed.

You see, we all make mistakes in identification (or at least many of us do). I am merely suggesting his mistake. Clothes are relatively easy to mistake--especially dark ones. Faces, less easy. But, I daresay, we've all done it.

If Marshall's chap had indeed given Liz the flower AFTER the purported sighting, then we have opened a veritable Pandora's box--and what comes out is too ugly (and convoluted!) to contemplate.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

"we all make mistakes in identification"

Granted. And other witnesses erred in the Ripper case, just like it happens in any case.

But one witnesses mistake/s do not spill over on other witnesses, I´m afraid. Mrs Malcolms testimony should not be read as a warning on behalf of Marshall, just like any correct testimony should not be seen as some sort of encouragement on his behalf. Marshall´s testimony is unique to him only, and he is very specific and clear on all counts.
It will take a lot to rock his testimony, and to be honest, I have not seen it stir the least so far.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken

Hello Fish

"But one witnesses mistake/s do not spill over on other witnesses"

Nor should it. I merely remark the propensity of humankind to err.

And you are right that Marshall's testimony has not been shaken. Nevertheless, the flow of events with Marshall OUT is manifold times simpler than the flow with Marshall IN. Hence one wonders (or at least, I wonder) if Marshall belongs in a different pile. (Compare this to the convolutions one must accept if one allows that MJK was up and about the next day.)

Cheers.
LC