Schwartz and Brown

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello CD.

"Well first the question of why the cachous survived her being thrown to the ground has to be answered."

You mean outside the gates? I don't think they were out. Inside the gates? She was gently laid down (or so it looked).

"Now if they indicate that she was at ease and not fearful of her life (which I think is the case) why would she do so in the presence of an angry BS man[?]"

Ex hypothesi, he had calmed down a bit. (Unless I missed the hypothesis.)

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

"How do we know that cachous don't apply in paid-for sex? Given a choice, I think a client would prefer good breath to bad. They also may have been used to give oral sex a little something extra."

We don´t KNOW it as such, c.d - but as I have pointed out before, if they were a tool of the trade, it is strange that they were not reported to be about in any other prostitutes belongings at that approximate time.
Another point that has to be made is that the cachous did not necessarily improve the breath at all - they were described as sweetmeats, and on earlier threads posters aquainted with cachous from their upbringing have told us that they were very mild and flower-scented.
The famous french, very strong cachous, known from famous posters and such, were not introduced on the market until the early 1890:s.

So no, there seems to be little reason to regard Strides tablets as related to sex.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"I'm confident that an explation such as the one I outline above could well account for presence of the cachous. All I would observe is that their presnece in Stride's hand would seem, to be, to be far more compatible with preparedness for attack on Stride's part than a silent, sudden onslaught."

It is a question of credibility, Ben. And the credibility that she would hold on to the cachous drops with each fall to the ground on her behalf, simple as that.
And - just like you said - the compression of the artery (and the cut - my remark) could well account for her clenching her hand. Outside the gates, this was not about, dramatically decreasing the chances of her having held on to the cachous during a fall.

Holding on to the cachous during one fall after having been choked is the better bid than doing so through a sequence of two falls and some subsequent (and dead silent?) sort of fight for her life. This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that she must have known her assailant - it is by far more credible that she brought the cachous out inside the yard.

The rest of the incident seemingly strengthens the hypothesis -if Broadshoulders was someone unknown to her, why do you think he tried to drag her out into the street first? I have a very good and plausible explanation to that if we work from the suggestion of an aquaintance. What is your suggestion? Can you find a motive for an unknown assailant to do this? Can you account for why she cried out three times - in a lowered voice?

The Stride case is in fact a very rewarding case to study, since the bits and pieces - few as they are - all lend themselves to a fully covering solution with the aquaintance scenario. It is like finishing a jigsaw puzzle. The pieces will only fit together with the correct solution - and that solution involves Stride being killed by a man she knew well.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Oh, I don't know the answer, CD, but I'm confident that an explation such as the one I outline above could well account for presence of the cachous. All I would observe is that their presnece in Stride's hand would seem, to be, to be far more compatible with preparedness for attack on Stride's part than a silent, sudden onslaught.

Best regards,
Ben

Just having a bit of sport with you, Ben. While we usually disagree, I am generally impressed by your arguments and your writing style. That particular answer didn't seem to live up to your usual standards.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. I recall from the coroner's inquests that there were 2 telltale signs of strangulation. 1. clenching the fist, 2. a protruding/lacerated tongue.

Now Liz was not strangled to death, so one would not expect a protruding tongue. But if she were taken down from behind by the scarf around the neck and felt the incipient choke, would not her fist--of particular interest, the left with the cachous--clench? It's merely a reflex action.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Well first the question of why the cachous survived her being thrown to the ground has to be answered. I think the answer is simple - she didn't have them in her hand then. Then the question becomes when did she take out the cachous? Now if they indicate that she was at ease and not fearful of her life (which I think is the case) why would she do so in the presence of an angry BS man.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

sen sen

Hello Ben. When I was a small chap, cachous were available commercially under the trade name, Sen Sen. They were, in both dimensions and appearance, similar to the burned tip of a match. The taste? Altogether disgusting.

But the funny thing is, they did take away bad breath (not to mention any desire for another).

The best
LC

[Ben]

If you don't know the answer, Ben, it's okay to say so.

Oh, I don't know the answer, CD, but I'm confident that an explation such as the one I outline above could well account for presence of the cachous. All I would observe is that their presnece in Stride's hand would seem, to be, to be far more compatible with preparedness for attack on Stride's part than a silent, sudden onslaught.

Best regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello CD. I recall from the coroner's inquests that there were 2 telltale signs of strangulation. 1. clenching the fist, 2. a protruding/lacerated tongue.

Now Liz was not strangled to death, so one would not expect a protruding tongue. But if she were taken down from behind by the scarf around the neck and felt the incipient choke, would not her fist--of particular interest, the left with the cachous--clench? It's merely a reflex action.

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Fish,

I'm not suggesting that the cachous were used as a weapon. I suggest that she may have retrieved them when she saw a potential customer approach from the North, thought better of the idea when she registered his intoxicated condition and aggressive behaviour, and that they remained in her fist during the ensuing scrap, not because they made a good weapon, but because she considered them valuable. If they were ensconced in a fist, I don't know how reasonable or unreasonable it would be to surmise that none were dropped outside the gates. If we knew more about the dimensions of the cachous packet or those of the individual sweets, we'd be better equipped to make such a determination.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

How do we know that cachous don't apply in paid-for sex? Given a choice, I think a client would prefer good breath to bad. They also may have been used to give oral sex a little something extra.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I can see them surviving a fall to the ground in her hands if she anticipated an attack, CD. If someone pushed me over when I had a £20 note in my fist, I wouldn't relinquish it. If I was tripped up from behind with a surprise attack, things would be different.

If you don't know the answer, Ben, it's okay to say so. I think you're stretching it a bit there my friend.

c.d.

[Ben]

I can see them surviving a fall to the ground in her hands if she anticipated an attack, CD. If someone pushed me over when I had a £20 note in my fist, I wouldn't relinquish it. If I was tripped up from behind with a surprise attack, things would be different.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"Sudden compression of the carotid artery could well account for their presence in her hand, as would a last struggle with her assailant, during which she attempted to fend off her attacker with clenched fists (with cachous enclosed therein)."

There was no compression of the artery outsíde the gates. That means that she would have held on to the cachous when being thrown to the ground, when getting up on her feet, when being shoved/threatened into the yard and when being brought to ground inside the yard.
Apart from this, we can see that as she hit the ground inside the yard, some cachous were scattered about. But nobody reports on any cachous being about outside the yard. Reasonably, she would have spilled some of them there too, when going down.

Taken together, this all very clearly suggests that the cachous were not in her hand until inside the yard. And that in itself suggests a state of mind on her behalf where she felt at ease and safe. As I have said before, the cachous do not apply in paid-for sex, and they make a poor weapon in fights with violent men, so poor in fact that most women would not opt for trying them in such a scenario in the first place!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Maybe so, Ben, but that doesn't answer the question of how the cachous survived her being thrown to the ground.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"It makes me nervous when we are in agreement, Fisherman"

Uncanny, c.d, absolutely uncanny. We are going to have to do something about it.

The best,
Fisherman