Schwartz and Brown

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Sudden compression of the carotid artery could well account for their presence in her hand, as would a last struggle with her assailant, during which she attempted to fend off her attacker with clenched fists (with cachous enclosed therein).

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

But that brings up the question of why the cachous didn't break when she was thrown to the ground.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

How do we know that the BS man was in possession of a knife?

We don't, not for certain, but I was working on the basis on your "Assuming for the sake of argument that it was the BS man that killed her" suggestion. In the above outlined scenario, the cachous would probably have been in her hands before BS accosted her.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Ben writes:

"I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free"."

A good suggestion - until we need to know why she brought her cachous out in such a situation.

The best,
Fisherman

It makes me nervous when we are in agreement, Fisherman.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi CD,

I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free".

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

How do we know that the BS man was in possession of a knife? When did Liz take out the cachous?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free"."

A good suggestion - until we need to know why she brought her cachous out in such a situation.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

"If the BS man was angry enough to throw her to the ground and issue a threat to Schwartz, how could Liz not be aware that this was a dangerous situation for her?"

In fact, c.d, you cannot assess the level of danger involved - unless you KNOW the man! If he is unknown to you, most anything could happen, and inflicted violence would reasonably point to more of the same coming up.
But if you KNOW the man you are dealing with, you may - for example - also be aware that he would probably grow very regretful after doing such a thing as throwing you to the ground.
Mechanisms like these are very often involved in domestic violence - the woman involved often knows exactly what will follow her moves, and she can inflict mental damage as retaliation, something she would not dare to do if she could not foresee the consequences.

"The fact that no argument was heard and the cachous tell me that she was completely at ease with her killer."

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y, c.d! And with what kind of people are we completely at ease during such a thing as the Ripper scare? Those we know or those we do not know?

The very best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi CD,

I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free".

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

It has more to do with how Liz got from the street to the yard. Assuming for the sake of argument that it was the BS man that killed her, I think that he would have had to have dragged her. That seems the most likely scenario to me in which case unless Liz was a complete fool she would have to assume she was in danger.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Yet, you have a street veteran like Liz completely unaware that she was in immediate danger.

I'm not sure how you've deduced from Schwartz's account that Stride did not consider herself in immediate danger after being accosted by BS man. I hope it's not the assumption that screaming "not loudly" = not particularly scared. Because that still doesn't necessarily follow.

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

Well it is a moot point since we don't know how she ended the evening tricking or not tricking as the case may be. I tried to make that clear in my previous posts.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

"I agree that Liz's behavior tends to indicate that she was on a date

What precisely is this behavior? A known prostitute going to a bar early in the day, then hitting the bar circuit that evening, during which she's seen with different men. That's hooking, not dating. I've often seen her using a lint brush on her dress as a sign she was going on a date. That's ridiculous. Liz was used to somewhat better life than Chapman and Nichols, et al. She'd had a home for years with Kidney, who made decent money. Polly Nichols had just acquired a new dress and 'jolly bonnet', yet she was not out on a date the night she died. There seems to be a trend of romantacizing Liz lately. It's fun to speculate, but let's not forget that Liz was out meeting strange men the night she died.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

I'm glad that things all add up for you. Again, be careful of straining that rotator cuff. But I see a giant red flag. Liz being unaware of the danger being the giant stumbling block for me. In the two most common non-Jack scenarios we have the BS man or Kidney/unknown lover as her killer. But in both those instances we have anger/jealousy as a supposed motive. If the BS man was angry enough to throw her to the ground and issue a threat to Schwartz, how could Liz not be aware that this was a dangerous situation for her? The same applies to Kidney, a heavy drinker with a history of abusing her. The same goes for some imagined lover. If he is jealous and angry, I would assume that there would be a reason for it. Does he not say a word to Liz and hide his emotions? Yet, you have a street veteran like Liz completely unaware that she was in immediate danger. That seems extremely unlikely to me. The fact that no argument was heard and the cachous tell me that she was completely at ease with her killer. And while it doesn't necessarily follow that it was Jack it sure doesn't add up that it was the BS man or Kidney/lover.

c.d.

Hi Lynn,

My typing and proofreading skills seem to be taking a day off.

[lynn cates]

new thread?

Hello CD. Well, let's see.

"Liz might have closed up shop for the evening as you say and was not actively soliciting. But what if she were app[r]oached by a customer? Was her financial situation such that she could pass up an opportunity? Maybe."

I like your maybe. It's quite possible that's what she did with her, "Not tonight. Maybe some other night."

"I understood your story and the immediate effects of anger. But let's not forget that we have no evidence that Liz had a lover at the time. Even if she left Kidney for someone else we don't know the status of the relationship at this point. We are also assuming that jealousy was a motive and that this jealousy just happened to have boiled over on the same night that Jack was out doing his thing."

Indeed. We have very little evidence of Liz's personal life at all. I am satisfied that Kidney was not involved in any of it. (Of course, if I were SY, I'd interrogate him first.)

Both the domestic scenario and the Jack scenario have catches. But I find the ripper one all but untenable.

But one can still make a dubious case for Jack. Say, why not a new thread, "Saving Liz" or something of that sort? We might find a way to get something to fit.

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"Liz might have closed up shop for the evening as you say and was not actively soliciting. But what if she were appoached by a customer? Was her financial situation such that she could pass up an opportunity?"

I´m with you on this one, c.d - for as you know, I am of the meaning that her aquaintance actually belived that she WAS selling herself outside the yard. And I think that she was unprepared to see him again at that time and stage. Just like you say, we may be dealing with a scenario where she set out for a date, but opted for business somewhere along the line. If this was due to the date going wrong or if it was a success and she simply decided to try and raise some money afterwards, we cannot tell. But you may well be spot on here!

On the notion that Liz was leaving the yard when she was attacked and cut:

The reasonable assumption is that her killer grabbed her by the scarf from behind. You do not trow people of balance and bring them down by pushing them forwards in such a situation - you pull them backwards. If Liz was facing the entrance to the yard as this happened, she would fall into the yard, meaning that her head would end up in the direction of the kitchen door and her feet would face the gates. This is exactly what happened.

She did not go down straight on her back - her clothes tell us as much. If she had, then she would have fallen into her assailants chest. Instead she fell backwards and sideways, spinning to her left in the air by appearances. Therefore, she ended up on her left side. This is consistent with Blackwells assertion that the scarf had peen pulled hard to the left. Such a manouver ensured that she would not fall on the man that had grabbed her scarf, she would instead pass him on his left side. If this is what happened, she would arguably end up in the type of position we know she was found in.

In this scenario, she does not see what was coming. She could be completely unaware of the danger, since she was headed for the gate, having turned her back on BS man. Thus no crying out, thus she could well have felt cachous-comfortable, thus the frayed scarf, thus the complete and utter surprise. Once again, it all adds up.

The best,
Fisherman