Schwartz and Brown

Hello Mike. I agree. It looks very like a sudden gust of anger. Moreover, Kidney had motive and, perhaps, opportunity. My only problem with Kidney is that--his silliness notwithstanding--I don't think he was psychologically adept enough to restrain his guilty feelings at the inquest. But I could be wrong.

The best.
LC

He sure comes off like a loony at the Inquest, so who knows what kind of man he is.....and what comments like "I believe she liked me better than any other man"..meant to him when he made them.

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

gust of anger

Hello Mike. I agree. It looks very like a sudden gust of anger. Moreover, Kidney had motive and, perhaps, opportunity. My only problem with Kidney is that--his silliness notwithstanding--I don't think he was psychologically adept enough to restrain his guilty feelings at the inquest. But I could be wrong.

The best.
LC

Hello Mike. There is much in your post that is useful and gives me some ideas. Of course, the very good idea that she is starting to become wary is a bit problematic for stopping to take cachous. But perhaps she has been quarreling with someone she knows and then stopping to get one of the cachous might be natural. She might be walking away and then he does the take down.

I think your notion of how the take down occurred is dead on. She seems to be walking away and I can visualize his left arm pulling on the neckerchief, tightly, stifling her scream. Perhaps the cut by his right hand came next, as the coroner conjectured. This would lead to his depositing the body on the left side (How did it go? Gently laid down?) And then leaving the yard.

Thanks.

The best.
LC

He scarf was also twisted tightly Lynn, to me that signals possibly that he steered her to fall to his left, nearer to the wall...so he easily could get his right hand and knife across her throat. And youre right in pointing out...she falls, and doesnt move,..nor does he move her.

It was an instant that cost Liz her life....to me that smacks of hatred and/or anger, something I wouldnt expect from someone who doesnt even know her. Maybe something a jilted boyfriend might do if he's trying to accuse her of seeing someone else now....days after he was given the boot.

I see a motive for Kidney if Liz is waiting for a date with a Jewish socialist and he finds out, maybe thats what broke them up.....but thats all I can say about him....theres no evidence he was there. But it would explain an anti semetic remark if he was seen with her too, and maybe why she felt comfortable enough to be handling cashous....I just think a motive is what we need for Liz, and some way to explain her dropping her guard....particularly if she was assaulted by BSM.

Cheers again Mate

[lynn cates]

useful

Hello Mike. There is much in your post that is useful and gives me some ideas. Of course, the very good idea that she is starting to become wary is a bit problematic for stopping to take cachous. But perhaps she has been quarreling with someone she knows and then stopping to get one of the cachous might be natural. She might be walking away and then he does the take down.

I think your notion of how the take down occurred is dead on. She seems to be walking away and I can visualize his left arm pulling on the neckerchief, tightly, stifling her scream. Perhaps the cut by his right hand came next, as the coroner conjectured. This would lead to his depositing the body on the left side (How did it go? Gently laid down?) And then leaving the yard.

Thanks.

The best.
LC

Hello Mike. There can be no doubt but that she was not expecting what happened, nor was she preparing for a "customer." No. It was sudden and swift. Hence, 2 conjectures seem likely.

1. It was someone known to her and with whom she felt comfortable.

2. It was someone of which Liz was unaware. On the "Jack" scenario, he would be hiding up the yard and then he sprang on her.

But on scenario 2, there is a burning question. What on earth was Liz doing IN the yard and why is she now going out?

The best.
LC

Conjecture alert.........I think its possible that Liz saw who she was waiting for enter the yard at around 12:40am, and either entered the yard by herself after she loses the man with the arm blocking her "passage".....count on Sam ......or is followed into it....maybe by the same man who she was speaking with. He bugs her again, now she is getting a little wary of this guy so she starts to head back outside the gates for some streetlight when she is grabbed from behind by the scarf.

Maybe there is a man already in there as she enters, and she thinks twice about staying in there with him, she turns and starts for the gates, he grabs her......

What I'm looking for is a way to justify the cashous, the fact she is in that yard at all, and the probable state of her emotionally just prior to the murder. If she saw someone she was waiting for enter the yard at 12:40....with the anticipation that he would be back out to get her within minutes, might she excuse herself from the friendly-ish conversation Brown saw and head into the yard to wait, maybe getting out some mints in anticipation of close conversation with someone shortly?

Someone could either be already in the yard, or enter it after her, she gets the feeling she might be better off with more street light....only a bit too late.

Just thinkin aloud Lynn.

All the best


Ill just add this.....Morris Eagle left the building after the meeting ended to take his date home, somewhere around 11-11:30pm. At 12:40am he returns to the club. He is a paid speaker, maybe returning for his pay....or to have a few songs with the boys......or.... maybe he has a second date that night, one that the lady in question expected to last all night long.

[Sam Flynn]

his arm may have blocked her passage

... I don't get the impression that he was that close to her

[lynn cates]

questions, questions

Hello Mike. There can be no doubt but that she was not expecting what happened, nor was she preparing for a "customer." No. It was sudden and swift. Hence, 2 conjectures seem likely.

1. It was someone known to her and with whom she felt comfortable.

2. It was someone of which Liz was unaware. On the "Jack" scenario, he would be hiding up the yard and then he sprang on her.

But on scenario 2, there is a burning question. What on earth was Liz doing IN the yard and why is she now going out?

The best.
LC

Hello Mike. Quite right--those bloody cachous again. And they figure prominently in any scenario to forbid any movement except an extremely rapid take down.

It seems, then, that there could have been no turning of the body or pulling it or other struggle ante mortem. No. It must be as was said at the inquest--a quick take down, likely by the neckerchief, and she must have contracted her fists when seized. Only that, I think, can account for the cachous.

But all this suggests EXITING the yard, given the placement of the body. And it does no good to suggest a post mortem turning of the body 180 degrees. At least, not to my mind.

The best.
LC

I think youre right Lynn....the only explanation that can work with those cashous is one that has Liz not on her guard at the moment she is attacked. If it was the scarfgrab-pulloffbalance-slitwhiledropping that Blackwell suggests, thats 2 seconds.....she must have been in a state of mind that did not anticipate an attack...at least not that quickly.

Could BSM, based on the altercation that Schwartz says he saw...outside the gates.....have soothed Liz enough in the few minutes that they would have had after that fall and his helping her up to have her completely at ease again and thinking of fresh breath? I dont know. Would his yelling at a bystander in a threatening manner scare her a bit more than the altercation? I dont know.

But I do feel that the secene described in the altercation that Schwartz says he saw occurred between 2 people who were either strangers or not familiar with each other.....and Browns to me suggests the opposite.

In which scenario would she likely have cashous in her hand... after an altercation with a stranger that caused her to fall....or one that involved a quiet chat with perhaps a friend, and seemingly with no threat to her at all implied or exhibited?

You know where Im leaning.

Cheers mate

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Mike. Quite right--those bloody cachous again. And they figure prominently in any scenario to forbid any movement except an extremely rapid take down.

It seems, then, that there could have been no turning of the body or pulling it or other struggle ante mortem. No. It must be as was said at the inquest--a quick take down, likely by the neckerchief, and she must have contracted her fists when seized. Only that, I think, can account for the cachous.

But all this suggests EXITING the yard, given the placement of the body. And it does no good to suggest a post mortem turning of the body 180 degrees. At least, not to my mind.

The best.
LC

To me the interesting thing about Browns sighting is that the situation that he says he saw was not a threatening one....overtly. They were talking, albeit his arm may have blocked her passage, but Brown didnt say she was stressed or struggling. The tussle that ended with a fall with BSM appears confrontational and potentially enough to stir up some anger or defensive posturing on Liz's part......yet within minutes she is bleeding to death inside the gates with cashous in her hand. The cashous will always be a problem with the Schwartz account.....yet they pose no problem with the Brown story.

The timing and the cashous have to play a role in the determination of whom to follow I think......regardless who is the one giving the 12:45am story on the stand...or who isnt.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

flower disparity

Hello Jon. Thanks. I was always struck by the "flower disparity."

Trying to identify victims/suspects by their clothing seems to me a dubious enterprise at best. And yet how many of our "better" witnesses did precisely that?

The best.
LC

[Jon Guy]

2. Different events with different men?

Hi Lynn

I believe Brown saw another couple by the Board School in Fairclough St.

The same couple were seen by Fanny Mortimer, before, and after the murder when they walked up to the club gates and spoke to her. They were hanging around the bottom of the Berner St before the murder, and as Brown came along Fairclough St to the chandlers (which was on the corner of Berner St opposite the Nelson where Pipeman was standing) it has to have been this couple that he saw.

Although he identified Stride at the morgue, he didn`t notice any flower on the woman he saw, and the man had a long coat and he couldn`t remember whether there was any head wear.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Sam

So 1976 was the first time the Lipski/Mr BS stuff surfaced.

Interesting or what?

It looks like it, Stephen. The Schwartz story was, in outline, carried by The Star of the 1st October 1888 - but it doesn't give Schwartz's name, and there's mention of "broad shoulders" or the cry of "Lipski!" either. It does, however, report that Schwartz told of a second man "shouting out some sort of warning" to the chap ill-using Liz Stride.

Apropos the police perhaps wanting to keep a tight lid on any Semitic connections, it's interesting to note that Schwartz is only described as an "Hungarian" in the article - not "Jewish". Furthermore, the Star also has this to say: "He [Schwartz] gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them". Of course, that might well have been in order to respect the privacy of the witness, but it does make one think.

[Stephen Thomas]

It wasn't, Stephen - which leads me to believe that it might have been suppressed to avoid stoking up anti-Semitic fires. The concerns held by the police in this regard is perhaps reflected in the way in which they treated the GSG, both on the street and in internal memos.

Thanks, Sam

So 1976 was the first time the Lipski/Mr BS stuff surfaced.

Interesting or what?

[Sam Flynn]

Was the 'Lipski shout' mentioned in newspapers at the time?

It wasn't, Stephen - which leads me to believe that it might have been suppressed to avoid stoking up anti-Semitic fires. The concerns held by the police in this regard is perhaps reflected in the way in which they treated the GSG, both on the street and in internal memos.