Schwartz and Brown

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

With respect to marriage, in your post #119 you state "...a man with aspirations of becoming her wife." If I misinterpreted that, my aplogies.

Where did Schwartz state that he had heard an argument between the BS man and Liz? He didn't speak English so how could he testify as to what he overheard?

Easy with the chain of evidence argument there, Fish. You'll strain your rotator cuff patting yourself on the back. (insert smiley face). Of course it won't break since it is based on speculation and any perceived weak link will be bolstered by more speculation.

As for Jack, yes, that argument is based on speculation as well. But at least if you believe that he killed Kate that night then we know he was out and nearby. That seems to put him in the lead over some imagined jealous lover.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

While Iīm at it, c.d, Iīll have a go at the questions you ask Lynn too:

"1. Why is it necessary to go back into the yard to discuss things? Why not just do it on the street?"

The yard offered seclusion and privacy - once again, cd, people do not take their domestic quarrels to the street if they can avoid it.

"2. Why does no one hear any argument?"

Schwartz certainly did. As for the rest, if they took their issues into the yard to get some seclusion and privacy, it would be a strange thing to do to start shouting once they were inside. The rest could well have drowned in the singing from the club.

"3. If it was Kidney, why does he stick around Whitechapel after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?"

Good question. And one of the reasons that I donīt hold Kidney as the top candidate.

"4. Why no marks on Liz's face indicating that she had been slapped as the argument escalated?"

Simple! Beacuse she was never slapped in the face.

"To me, the domestic angle is pure speculation."

Agreed! But it is good, fruitful speculation, built on a chain of evidence that will not break no matter where it is tested.

Can you say the same for the suggestion that Jack cut her?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"If you accept the premise that this was simply a case of domestic violence, then I think you are going to see everything in that light. Now you have gone so far as to even speculate that her killer wanted to marry her!"

I did? Really? When did that come about?

My suggestion is that he did not want their relationship to end, and that he did not want anybody to take his place. And of course it is a suggestion only! What else could it be?
The fact is, though, that I can make the details fit with such a suggestion. And, if I may be so bold as to remind you, c.d, what you do is ALSO to suggest - in fact to suggest that an eviscerating serial killer did away with Liz. And true or false, I think you need to realize that such a scenario will not readily lend itself to the existing evidence! Up til the time - at the very least - that happens, you too, my friend, are dealing with what you aptly call "pure speculation".

"Might Liz have mentioned to any of her friends that she was seeing somebody and that he was pushing for a serious relationship and he was quite jealous? Might she have mentioned his name or where he works? I think that is quite possible."

Taking it from the beginning:
-She may have mentioned him and she may not. If the relationship was a fresh one, she need not have known about any jealousy on his behalf. If, however, she did know of jealousy on KIDNEYS behalf, that may have prompted her to keep the affair to herself.

There is also the possibility that her new friend thought the relationship a lot more serious than Liz did - we know her to be a dodgy character, telling all sorts of colourful stories to gain from it herself. Please remember that if this man killed her, then it only took jealousy from HIS side to do so!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

If you accept the premise that this was simply a case of domestic violence, then I think you are going to see everything in that light. Now you have gone so far as to even speculate that her killer wanted to marry her! We KNOW absolutely nothing about any relationship that Liz might have had and so to assign motives and create scenarios and attempt to provide expantions for what took place is pure speculation.

Also consider this. Might Liz have mentioned to any of her friends that she was seeing somebody and that he was pushing for a serious relationship and he was quite jealous? Might she have mentioned his name or where he works? I think that is quite possible. I would expect that this information would have been passed on to the police and they would have followed up on it. Speculation of course, but I think quite reasonable.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. You say:

"[L]et's not forget the role alcohol might play[.]"

Very well. But her post mortem did not indicate any.

Curious.

With regard to screaming. Well, in her supposed altercation with BS, did she scream?

The best.
CD

Hi Lynn,

With regards to alcohol, I was referring to her killer be it Kidney or some other jealous lover. Kidney was apparently a heavy drinker and it is not a great leap to imagine him or someone else who felt left out to start hitting the bottle. As for Liz, if someone starts an argument and they start yelling, it would be natural to raise your own voice in response whether they had been drinking or not.

I am not sure what you mean with regard to her altercation with the BS man. The point that I was making is that I would expect a loud argument back in the yard if in fact it was a domestic. Liz's lack of a scream (or actually three small screams) is very puzzling. If she felt threatened by the BS man, why didn't she appeal to Schwartz or the Pipe Man for help? To say that this was because she knew the BS man (Kidney or her lover) is an acceptable answer but then you have (to me anyway) a number of questions that pop up:

1. Why is it necessary to go back into the yard to discuss things? Why not just do it on the street?

2. Why does no one hear any argument?

3. If it was Kidney, why does he stick around Whitechapel after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?

4. Why no marks on Liz's face indicating that she had been slapped as the argument escalated?

To me, the domestic angle is pure speculation.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

company

Hello Fish. Thanks. I am sure I will enjoy that company.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alcohol

Hello CD. You say:

"[L]et's not forget the role alcohol might play[.]"

Very well. But her post mortem did not indicate any.

Curious.

With regard to screaming. Well, in her supposed altercation with BS, did she scream?

The best.
CD

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:

"I do not mean stalked in the sense that the stalker kept his distance at all times.In Strides case it seems that if there was the one man theory to account for the persons seen in her company,then he was never far away.As for the signs of affection shown,it doesn't mean anymore than that for a one night stand today.Just something to further a sense of security and promise of a good time.A small price to pay if an end result was to be achieved."

So, Harry, what are you saying here? That this man was the Ripper? If so, he employed a radically different tactic than in the other cases, where it would seem he did not spend the same amount of time grooming his victims at all.
And if so, he was not opposed to being spotted at this one isolated occasion.

Moreover, his respecatble appearance does not tally in the least with Lawendes man - who, arguably, would be the best bet for the Ripperīs role.

Or are you suggesting that Strides man was NOT the Ripper - but ANOTHER sinister character, bent on killing?

Whichever track out of these two you choose, I feel certain that you will be travelling on the wrong train. I feel equally certain that the affection shown inbetween Stride and this man was something more than the equivalent of a one night stand. It would seem, Harry, that at least for the man we are discussing, he may have been prepared to kill over it.

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
I do not mean stalked in the sense that the stalker kept his distance at all times.In Strides case it seems that if there was the one man theory to account for the persons seen in her company,then he was never far away.As for the signs of affection shown,it doesn't mean anymore than that for a one night stand today.Just something to further a sense of security and promise of a good time.A small price to pay if an end result was to be achieved.
I believe in one notorious case,that of Neville Heath,he went through a similar process,and I have an idea there have been many other cases showing the same techniques.

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"It tells me that there would have been a very loud argument..."I thought I was the only man that you were seeing"..."I never told you that. I can see whoever I want"..."I won't be made a fool of"....etc. etc. etc."

Letīs just agree to begin with, c.d, that each and every man would react individually to a situation like this. Some would hit, some would yell, some would weep. Others would be stunned, and do absolutely nothing. Perhaps the odd chap would faint, perhaps there would be those who would just turn their back on the woman and walk away. Others would throw up, some would ...

See what Iīm getting at? If we could be sure exactly how each and every person would react to a situation concerning stress, we could cut the police force down to next to nothing. Everything would be predictable, and we would never be faced with any unpleasantly unexpected behaviour.

But this is not how it works, is it?

Of course we could see the relevance in a shouting spouse. But do not forget that this man seemingly threw Stride to the ground! And if he wanted to continue their relationship, he may at that point have realized that a more caring and careful approach may be useful.
Some menīs anger wonīt go away. Other men will display a sudden rush of fury, and when that is done, they cool off. Further men will keep their calm throughout.

We know there was an exchange in words. We know there was a physical brawl, some sort of disagreement. We know that the man was tense enough to shout "Lipsky!" to Schwartz (or "Lizzie!" to Stride).
Emotions were running high, c.d. No need to ask for a slap in the face to have that confirmed, no need to ask for further shouting if Liz instead decided that she did not want to get the attention of all the clubbers - most people prefer to discuss their love affairs and get their differences sorted out IN PRIVATE!

What do you do when you disagree with your wife, c.d? Do you take her out into the street, wake the neighbours and ask them to come outside and join you as you shout at her and give her a punch on the nose?

My guess is that you stay inside, keep your voices at a level that stops nosy neighbours from getting something to chat with their buddys about and take care of things IN PRIVATE. And if you did hit your wife (God forbid, and please realize that Iīm theorizing here to make myself fully understood - as far as I understand you are a thoroughly nice fellow, and if you have the kind of wife you deserve you are a truly lucky man) and produce a bruise thereby, my hunch is that none of you would call anybody elses attention to that bruise afterwards.

This is domestic violence, c.d. This is how it works. It makes for silent brawls, hidden damage and private persecution. What it does not produce, praise the Lord, is ripped-up bellies and inner organs gone lost.

All the best, c.d! And once again, excuse me for being drastic!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:

"If we can assume that Liz was a targeted person that night,then I agree with you that the same person was seen with her at different times in different places,and it was at Duffield yard that the killer decided an opportunity had presented itself.If it were the case,I cannot understand the approach of BS at that time,or accept him as being the stalker."

I see what you mean, Harry - and you are of course on the button, logically; BS man did NOT behave rationally if we assume that he was stalking her that night.

But my suggestion is that she was NOT stalked at all. To my mind, Best and Gardnerīs man/Marshalls man/BS man was a man who was very fond of Liz, as portrayed in his affection in the Bricklayers arms and in the doorway of 58 Berner Street.
I think he was Lizīs lover, or - at the very least - a man with aspirations of becoming her spouse. I do not think he had an intention in the world to harm her from the outset. On the contrary, Harry!

Now, men who aspire to become lovers of women they fancy, do most often not take kindly to these women showing favours to other men. The extreme of it would be when these favours are of a sexual nature. So if our man thought that he was the one and only for Liz, then he would have been very disappointed by a sudden revelation of her prostituting herself outside the IWMEC.
That, if I am correct, was why he tried to drag her away, and come with him instead. Stride apparently was of another mindset altogether, and I suspect that led her to take him into the yard to tell him off. When he would not accept things, she simply gave him the slip, turned her back on him and headed for the gates.

Then, and only then, was when things turned sinister if you ask me. That was when a red haze obscured his rational thinking and he took his knife out and grabbed her from behind, by her scarf.

If he could not have her, no-one else would either.

It is the oldest motive in the world. Throughout history, Harry, millions of women must have met their maker due to considerations like this.

The Stride murder is no more of a riddle than this if I am correct. We have the 5 ft 5 man of a respectable appearance lining Strides last path - four different witnesses see him at three different occasion during her last two hours, it would seem. And there is nothing of the usual prostitute/client behaviour about it.
Moreover, this man is the last person seen with Stride, minutes before she is lethally cut.

It is not too hard a call to make. It all fits. And itīs not about stalking and ripping, is it?

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"It suggests HE was her big date. If he were well educated/well off, that would explain her ebullience and her "sprucing up" earlier that afternoon. It might also explain why a former boyfriend was jealous.

Am I heading in the right direction?"

God only knows, Lynn – but I can say that IF you are heading in this direction, we will do so in each otherīs company...

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hello CD. But cannot one argue sotto voce?

But how angry can one get in such a situation? Well, being a married chap . . .

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Well yes, most assuredly. But this ain't a high society dinner where a couple is surrounded by others of their ilk. Let's not forget the class of people who we are dealing with here. What is more probable? A quiet reasoned argument or all out yelling? And let's not forget the role alcohol might play. My money is on good old yelling.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

sotto voce

Hello CD. But cannot one argue sotto voce?

But how angry can one get in such a situation? Well, being a married chap . . .

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;105625]Lynn Cates writes:

"If they are the same, she spent some time in this one chap's company."

Exactly so, Lynn - and if they are NOT the same, it would seem she within the space of two hours met with three different men of the approximate same age, the same height, the same clothing more or less, possibly (confirmed in two instances and left uncommented on in instance number three) the same stature, and all of them making a respectable impression. Furthermore, she was very affectionate towards guy number one and two, and there is ample reason to believe that she was aquainted to the third man too. And all three men were seen with her in a very restricted area.

I know what it tells me - what does it tell you...? Surely not a story of a vicious eviscerator!?

It tells me that there would have been a very loud argument..."I thought I was the only man that you were seeing"..."I never told you that. I can see whoever I want"..."I won't be made a fool of"....etc. etc. etc.

Yet Mrs. Diemschutz and Morris Eagle say they heard nothing. No argument and no slaps to the face as the result of an escalating argument. Are we to believe that someone went from zero to sixty in the anger department and took out his trusty knife? Maybe. Just seems unlikely to me.

c.d.