Schwartz and Brown

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

And as for the scenario that she had them in her hand during the alleged altercation, she isnt likely to have clenched them as she did when she was being choked

There was no evidence of any choking taking place at the time of the Schwartz encounter. She may have experienced the sudden compression of the carotid artery once inside the yard, however, and she was more than likely to clench her fists - and anything ensconced therein - in such a scenario.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Fish,

Unless it is a bottle of nitroglycerin it can easily be picked up again afterwards.

I thought we just established that a handful of tiny sweets can't be "easily picked up again afterwards", especially on a darkened street. I think we ought to be careful of generalizations too. "People" might extend their palm when they fall, but that could easily change if they find themselves in a situation in which they are holding something valuable to them that can not be so easily retrieved if relinquished.

She resisted, was swung round and flung to the ground. That means that we have a question of what was the purpose of dragging her into the street.

Exactly. It seems odd for BS to have pulled her into the street with the intention of taking her in that direction only for him to "then turn her around" and throw her onto the footway, which was in the opposite direction. My explanation is that he never intended to pulll her towards the street - it just appeared that way because Stride attempted to flee in that direction.

with no fantastic ingredients at all but only very ordinary bits and pieces all pointing to a very common murder scenario, the logic dictates that we may well be dealing with the correct solution

If you've already decided that the evidence points in the direction of a "very common murder" it isn't really surprising that you'd consider it the "correct solution", and I don't begrudge you that. I'm sure you've noticed that others posting here are of a different persuasion, and feel the evidence points in a different direction.

Did Schwartz really register and surprise at the woman not screaming more loudly? I can't recall that detail, off hand. I don't find it particularly unfathomable myself.

As long as you realize and admit that I can build a functioning chain that involves each and every element included in the slaying

I'd be the first to commend you on giving the whole thing a great deal of thought, certainly.

Best regards,
Ben

Ben,

What if this was a modern murder and the victim was found with lip balm or lipstick in their hand? Or Tic Tacs?

And as for the scenario that she had them in her hand during the alleged altercation, she isnt likely to have clenched them as she did when she was being choked, so my guess is some would have spilled out when she fell and it would be noticeable that she went down with her hand clenched rather than open to brace herself for the landing.

Plus, she has to keep them in her hand for the balance of her life...anywhere from 1 minute after the assault to as much as 14 minutes.....that is of course assuming she is cut as Diemshutz pulled in. Which is the only reasonable reason she would be untouched after that....if he was The Ripper of course.

All the best Ben

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

"Where were you when I made that same argument about a hundred times before?"

I was here, c.d - I´ve been around since early jurassic days, you know!

"Now if you could only make the logical conclusion that she WOULD have felt threatened by someone who just threw her to the ground you might be on to something."

She may just as well have known that he would feel guilty, and that may have made her feel that her time had come for retaliation, c.d. Moreover, we still do not KNOW that she was "thrown" to the ground. She may have resisted his dragging her into the street and fallen when he lost his grip!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"However, I do not consider it remotely unlikely that she'd retain the cachous as she fell during the incident reported by Schwartz"

Sorry, Ben - but I do. People who fall fend the fall of by means of opening their hands and using the palms. What is there in the hand is dropped. Unless it is a bottle of nitroglycerin it can easily be picked up again afterwards.

"I'd say it's more than likely that BS intended to direct her into the yard, but was hampered by her attempts to retreat in the opposite direction - into the streets."

That is turning things upside down, Ben. Schwartz is crystal clear on it: BS man initially tried to drag her with him, into the street. She resisted, was swung round and flung to the ground. That means that we have a question of what was the purpose of dragging her into the street.
I have an answer. It is a very obvious one, and, once again, totally consistent with the aquaintance scenario.

"I can't really assign any particular motive for an unknown assailant to kill Stride as he did"

I can. And the chain of evidence holds true all the way. And, to be honest, when such a chain can be created, with no fantastic ingredients at all but only very ordinary bits and pieces all pointing to a very common murder scenario, the logic dictates that we may well be dealing with the correct solution.

"Maybe she didn't have a particularly loud scream"

We of course cannot tell, Ben. But we CAN tell that she kept her voice down to such an extent that Schwartz noted it as being strange - he would reasonably have expected her to cry out significantly louder. And once again, if we assume that the two knew each other, we find a very plausible explanation!

"I'm afraid I don't quite share your confidence that Stride was killed by someone known to her (not that I find the suggestion particularly improbable) or that she must have produced the cachous once inside the gates."

That is your prerogative. As long as you realize and admit that I can build a functioning chain that involves each and every element included in the slaying, explaining them all and giving them significance, I´m quite fine with that.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Michael writes:

"it doesnt work if she is in a situation that involves her feeling threatened.
Which the BSM incident might do....if he was a stranger....and if he stayed in her company.
The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple."

I really think it is, Michael; well put. And to think that this simple solution has been at hand for 121 years, during which Jack has remained the favoured suspect throughout...!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

Where were you when I made that same argument about a hundred times before? Now if you could only make the logical conclusion that she WOULD have felt threatened by someone who just threw her to the ground you might be on to something.

c.d.

[Ben]

Apologies if my standards seem to be slacking, CD! But thanks for the kind words all the same.

I don't, however, see any problem with Stride producing her cachous on the streets before BS arrived on the scene, especially given Lynn's useful insight into the shape and size of the things (thanks, Lynn!). The balled-up-fist scenario is perfectly credible, to my mind, and it was not as if there's any evidence to suggest she endured multiple falls.

Hi Fish,

Glad we seem to agree that a compressed carotid artery could well have accounted for the presence of the cachous in her hand inside the yard. However, I do not consider it remotely unlikely that she'd retain the cachous as she fell during the incident reported by Schwartz who, incidentally, observed that he "turned her round" and threw her onto the pavement. Unless he was throwing her one direction and then the other in quick succession, I'd say it's more than likely that BS intended to direct her into the yard, but was hampered by her attempts to retreat in the opposite direction - into the streets.

What is your suggestion? Can you find a motive for an unknown assailant to do this? Can you account for why she cried out three times - in a lowered voice?

Well, I'm firmly on the fence here, which is why I've avoided nailing my colours to any particular mast, but no, I can't really assign any particular motive for an unknown assailant to kill Stride as he did, just as I can't do any such thing for Eddowes, Kelly, Chapman, Tabram, and Nichols. As for the "lowered" voice, I doubt she had any particular reason to lower it. Maybe she didn't have a particularly loud scream, or was too preoccupied with fending off her attacker. I'm afraid I don't quite share your confidence that Stride was killed by someone known to her (not that I find the suggestion particularly improbable) or that she must have produced the cachous once inside the gates.

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"it doesnt work if she is in a situation that involves her feeling threatened.
Which the BSM incident might do....if he was a stranger....and if he stayed in her company.
The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple."

I really think it is, Michael; well put. And to think that this simple solution has been at hand for 121 years, during which Jack has remained the favoured suspect throughout...!

The best,
Fisherman

The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple.

I couldn't agree more.

c.d.

Must be 2 moons in the sky.

Cheers mate.

[c.d.]

The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple.

I couldn't agree more.

c.d.

I am at a complete loss here. The BS man is so angry that he kills Liz. His anger is demonstrated by throwing Liz to the ground and by threatening Schwartz. Yet Liz doesn't seem to feel that she is in any danger? WTF???

And Michael, please...it is cachous not cashous.

c.d.

Please excuse the wandering "c".

Youve hit upon the problem cd....it doesnt work if she is in a situation that involves her feeling threatened.

Which the BSM incident might do....if he was a stranger....and if he stayed in her company.

The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple.

Best regards

[c.d.]

I am at a complete loss here. The BS man is so angry that he kills Liz. His anger is demonstrated by throwing Liz to the ground and by threatening Schwartz. Yet Liz doesn't seem to feel that she is in any danger? WTF???

And Michael, please...it is cachous not cashous.

c.d.

Michael writes:

"Liz Stride was almost certainly choked with her scarf...while the knife was being used. It was twisted and tightly knotted and nicked while in that twisted state.
Since the only reasonable way that happens without a huge struggle or a cry out is an attack that she did not anticipate from behind her where she could not see the impending danger coming, the cashous only help illustrate that fact.
She was almost certainly unaware she was in imminent danger.
If alone with a stranger in that yard, just after an altercation outside the gates... well, that would be hard to buy into."

Was that you writing, Michael? Or was it me? Not that it matters - we would both have a pretty good case whoever it was!

The best,
Fisherman

Ahh... greed!

All the best amigo

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"Liz Stride was almost certainly choked with her scarf...while the knife was being used. It was twisted and tightly knotted and nicked while in that twisted state.
Since the only reasonable way that happens without a huge struggle or a cry out is an attack that she did not anticipate from behind her where she could not see the impending danger coming, the cashous only help illustrate that fact.
She was almost certainly unaware she was in imminent danger.
If alone with a stranger in that yard, just after an altercation outside the gates... well, that would be hard to buy into."

Was that you writing, Michael? Or was it me? Not that it matters - we would both have a pretty good case whoever it was!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi all,

Liz Stride was almost certainly choked with her scarf...while the knife was being used. It was twisted and tightly knotted and nicked while in that twisted state.

Since the only reasonable way that happens without a huge struggle or a cry out is an attack that she did not anticipate from behind her where she could not see the impending danger coming, the cashous only help illustrate that fact.

She was almost certainly unaware she was in imminent danger.

If alone with a stranger in that yard, just after an altercation outside the gates... well, that would be hard to buy into.

Best regards all.