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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Hi Jon,

    "The noise appeared to come from a room under her own." That is from the East London Advertiser on the 17th. I realize that she indicated at the Inquest she would have heard through that partition wall, but other quotes from papers indicate she could hear when Mary "moved about", the sounds coming from "below her own room". Im not trying to open the was she over Marys room or was she over the shed at the front of the house discussions again, but in truth it may be relevant in connection with the question.
    Yes, the noise that woke her up, agreed.
    I thought you were talking about any noises she could have heard from the stairwell, on her way up to her room.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    "The noise appeared to come from a room under her own."
    That East London Advertiser article is a paraphrased, third-person précis, and nearly every other report I've seen (many in the first-person) has her saying that the cry seemed to come from the court.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Michael.
    Prater was talking about standing on the stairs in the house, on the other side of Kelly's partition. She says she could have seen a light if there had been one, and heard her moving around if she was in.
    Prater was not talking about hearing Kelly from her own room at the front of the house,but from the stairwell, on her way up to her room.
    Hi Jon,

    "The noise appeared to come from a room under her own." That is from the East London Advertiser on the 17th. I realize that she indicated at the Inquest she would have heard through that partition wall, but other quotes from papers indicate she could hear when Mary "moved about", the sounds coming from "below her own room". Im not trying to open the was she over Marys room or was she over the shed at the front of the house discussions again, but in truth it may be relevant in connection with the question.

    Leave a comment:


  • harry
    replied
    How would W Edwards,registrar,have obtained details of Kelly's occupation? Personnel knowledge of the woman? Unlikely,so the information on the death certificate is hearsay.The registrar was given that information.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    ......... Prater was talking about what she might have heard through the partition as she ascended the stairs, not while she was all snuggled up with Diddles in her room... the front room over the shed, of course.
    Oops, sorry, you beat me to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    So Elizabeth could hear courtyard sounds in the middle of the night and sounds from Marys room when she moved about in it, and Sarah could hear a voice "as if at her door" in the middle of the night, and Mary Ann heard people coming and going in that courtyard until near 6am, and both Elizabeth and Mary Ann were outdoors, Elizabeth in the passageway, when Marys lights go out and her room is quiet...yet none of them would, or could, hear, or see, Mary slip out? Sam....of course they could have, its just a matter of record that they didn't. Which of course means its possible she never did leave that room.

    And if Blotchy leaves late that morning, no-one is awake to hear that anyway. We are talking about witnesses that have established they heard sounds and were awake at the time.
    Michael.
    Prater was talking about standing on the stairs in the house, on the other side of Kelly's partition. She says she could have seen a light if there had been one, and heard her moving around if she was in.
    Prater was not talking about hearing Kelly from her own room at the front of the house,but from the stairwell, on her way up to her room.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    unless it was him leaving at about 5:30 in the morning that the witness heard the footsteps(forgot who it was).
    Prater says she was up and out in the court at 5:30am.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Cox was out on the street until almost 3...do we know where she stood during that time? Might she have had a view of the courtyard entrance from that point? Absolutely. Not saying that's the way it was, just that its very possible. The point Im making is that we know Blotchy left, he wasnt there the next morning...we do not know Mary did, she was found where she was seen entering at 11:45am.
    You try to make it sound like no-one saw her out after 1:00, yet three (some say two), people say they saw her.
    You're promoting a deceptive argument Michael. Whether you choose to trust the word of these people is irrelevant, because you know nothing about them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    So Elizabeth could hear courtyard sounds in the middle of the night
    She was talking about cries/screams, not the clicking shut of a door.
    and sounds from Marys room when she moved about in it
    Not quite - read her testimony. Prater was talking about what she might have heard through the partition as she ascended the stairs, not while she was all snuggled up with Diddles in her room... the front room over the shed, of course.
    And if Blotchy leaves late that morning, no-one is awake to hear that anyway. We are talking about witnesses that have established they heard sounds and were awake at the time.
    Awake is one thing, attentive is quite another. Nobody had Mary's room under active surveillance, and she could easily have slipped out unnoticed at any time.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 06-18-2019, 04:32 PM.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Sorry, Michael, but it is simply not the case that either Cox or Lewis or anyone else would definitely have heard Mary slip out, because (apart from Hutch!) no-one had her room under surveillance for any length of time.

    And, whether they were nosey or not, nobody - but nobody - heard Blotchy leave.
    So Elizabeth could hear courtyard sounds in the middle of the night and sounds from Marys room when she moved about in it, and Sarah could hear a voice "as if at her door" in the middle of the night, and Mary Ann heard people coming and going in that courtyard until near 6am, and both Elizabeth and Mary Ann were outdoors, Elizabeth in the passageway, when Marys lights go out and her room is quiet...yet none of them would, or could, hear, or see, Mary slip out? Sam....of course they could have, its just a matter of record that they didn't. Which of course means its possible she never did leave that room.

    And if Blotchy leaves late that morning, no-one is awake to hear that anyway. We are talking about witnesses that have established they heard sounds and were awake at the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Sorry, Michael, but it is simply not the case that either Cox or Lewis or anyone else would definitely have heard Mary slip out, because (apart from Hutch!) no-one had her room under surveillance for any length of time.

    And, whether they were nosey or not, nobody - but nobody - heard Blotchy leave.
    unless it was him leaving at about 5:30 in the morning that the witness heard the footsteps(forgot who it was).

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Sorry, Michael, but it is simply not the case that either Cox or Lewis or anyone else would definitely have heard Mary slip out, because (apart from Hutch!) no-one had her room under surveillance for any length of time.

    And, whether they were nosey or not, nobody - but nobody - heard Blotchy leave.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    But they didn't have it under surveillance during those times. Who's going to notice the click of a door and a handful of footfalls at, say, 2:15AM? It's not even as if Mary would have had to cross the courtyard either - her door practically opened into the entrance passage, and she could have been out of sight within seconds of leaving her room. Unless Cox was still hanging around, or Lewis was looking out of the Keylers' window directly at Mary's door, they weren't likely to notice anything.
    Mary Ann Cox heard footfalls throughout that night Sam, some as late as around 6am. We also have the courtyard "oh-murder" heard around 3:45. To say that Mary left and the witnesses heard nothing presumes that any sounds of her leaving just happened to be missed by witnesses that stated they heard much of the bootsteps and voices in that courtyard. Why would they just miss the sound of Mary closing her door and trodding out to the street?

    Some people are nosy. I suspect Elizabeth is one of those, maybe Mary Ann too.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    But they didn't have it under surveillance during those times. Who's going to notice the click of a door and a handful of footfalls at, say, 2:15AM? It's not even as if Mary would have had to cross the courtyard either - her door practically opened into the entrance passage, and she could have been out of sight within seconds of leaving her room. Unless Cox was still hanging around, or Lewis was looking out of the Keylers' window directly at Mary's door, they weren't likely to notice anything.
    Cox was out on the street until almost 3...do we know where she stood during that time? Might she have had a view of the courtyard entrance from that point? Absolutely. Not saying that's the way it was, just that its very possible. The point Im making is that we know Blotchy left, he wasnt there the next morning...we do not know Mary did, she was found where she was seen entering at 11:45am.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Ok Jon, Ill address them in your quote;

    When you do that Michael, there's nothing for anyone to reply to. As you see above, all we have is an empty box.
    You need to separate each sentence or paragraph you are responding to.

    Leave a comment:

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