Hutch's Man

[Busy Beaver]

Where did Barnett view MJK to confirm her identity? Was it in Room 13 or at a morgue?

[John G]

It was stated that Barnett didn't like when she went out to work in the streets, so yeah, he was aware of her occupation. He was also aware when she wasn't working, illustrated by his daily visits to give her money after he had left the room. Mary was in arrears to the tune of almost three weeks rent, nothing she could ever gain traction on by going back out after getting hammered and home by midnight, and she had apparently eaten something already as well.She, in all practical terms, was safe from imminent eviction, and Bowyers visit that morning was to see "IF some rent could be collected".

Mary, by the back story we are given, is a young woman who likely had looks, and perhaps charm, that early on allowed her to sell her favors for money, she did so in upper class fashion for a time. Even going to Paris as a "consort". But she perhaps has now played the young beauty card too long...she is tough, and she is streetwise now, but she is not someone who had ever had to resort to the groveling kind of soliciting that went on in those streets before. She is maybe less able to latch on to someone to pay the bills now. This may haven been the downturn that tragically altered her future, perhaps its small mercy she didn't have to live the life she seemed to have before her for very long. One of abject poverty, constant exposure to starvation, essentially begging for scraps late at night and turning tricks to get them.

She was not a brothel consort anymore.

Aa I noted, the time spent in Paris could have been as a consquence of abduction and forced prostitution. Barnett contradicted himself, i.e. the more salacious account, publicised in the papers, was not consistent with his inquest account given under oath. He therefore joins a long list of unreliable witnesses, assuming he was just a witness. Didn't Bruce Paley argue that he was JtR?

Very good point about her being free of imminent eviction. As Marie Harvey's account suggests, she would wouldn't have solicited unless totally desperate. And I suggest, particularly not during the Ripper scare.

[Busy Beaver]

The Britannia-man was out on the street at 3:00 am.

Do you know what Aaron Kozminski looked like?

Sorry Wickerman, I don't know what he looked like, but Kos sounded as if he would frighten ladies, but I suppose the Police knew him and he would have been pulled up. I really truly do not think the Ripper accosted potential victims when he could be seen, not quite 100% sure, but pretty darn close!

[Michael W Richards]

Is there any proof that she was involved in soliciting during the time she was with Barnett, or for that matter Fleming? Barnett certainly didn't say so at the inquest. You also missed out the most pertinent part of the Marie Harvey quote: "I don't believe that she would have gone out as she did if she had not been obliged to do so to keep herself from starvation."

It's therefore possible that she, in desperation, returned to prostitution to pay the rent, and for food, after Barnett left. We simply don't know. And we're certainly not entitled to assume that she would have seen several men that night; a reasonable inference from the Harvey quote is that she would not.

Evidence that she went out at all on the night of her murder is weak. We have Hutchinson's dubious account, and Cox's questionable account. And that's just about it.

It was stated that Barnett didn't like when she went out to work in the streets, so yeah, he was aware of her occupation. He was also aware when she wasn't working, illustrated by his daily visits to give her money after he had left the room. Mary was in arrears to the tune of almost three weeks rent, nothing she could ever gain traction on by going back out after getting hammered and home by midnight, and she had apparently eaten something already as well.She, in all practical terms, was safe from imminent eviction, and Bowyers visit that morning was to see "IF some rent could be collected".

Mary, by the back story we are given, is a young woman who likely had looks, and perhaps charm, that early on allowed her to sell her favors for money, she did so in upper class fashion for a time. Even going to Paris as a "consort". But she perhaps has now played the young beauty card too long...she is tough, and she is streetwise now, but she is not someone who had ever had to resort to the groveling kind of soliciting that went on in those streets before. She is maybe less able to latch on to someone to pay the bills now. This may haven been the downturn that tragically altered her future, perhaps its small mercy she didn't have to live the life she seemed to have before her for very long. One of abject poverty, constant exposure to starvation, essentially begging for scraps late at night and turning tricks to get them.

She was not a brothel consort anymore.

[John G]

The Britannia-man was out on the street at 3:00 am.

Do you know what Aaron Kozminski looked like?

Is there any proof that she was involved in soliciting during the time she was with Barnett, or for that matter Fleming? Barnett certainly didn't say so at the inquest. You also missed out the most pertinent part of the Marie Harvey quote: "I don't believe that she would have gone out as she did if she had not been obliged to do so to keep herself from starvation."

It's therefore possible that she, in desperation, returned to prostitution to pay the rent, and for food, after Barnett left. We simply don't know. And we're certainly not entitled to assume that she would have seen several men that night; a reasonable inference from the Harvey quote is that she would not.

Evidence that she went out at all on the night of her murder is weak. We have Hutchinson's dubious account, and Cox's questionable account. And that's just about it.

[packers stem]

And to suggest the latter H matches toppy is hardly surprising.
It's an everyday H
Would match millions , including mine
I certainly wouldn't write the first one .
You seem to wish to ignore that signatures are personal , and although they can vary slightly , the capital letter of the surname would not vary so dramatically .
Unless you had 'forgotten' how you had signed the first sheet and were unable to check back .
Somebody signing a name they weren't accustomed to signing may possibly make such a mistake

[packers stem]

It's only different on the first page - the one page where, oddly enough, there's another, very similar "H" written by a copper at the top to indicate "H" Division. The "H"s are exactly the same on the next two pages of the Witness Statement, and there are several other examples of the same matching "H" on George Topping Hutchinson's marriage certificate and the 1911 Census. In short, we have at least 11 "H"s in later documents that were signed by Toppy which match the "H"s on pages 2 and 3 of the Witness Statement. All the other letters match, too.

So you prefer to believe that Badham wrote the H in the first signature ??
Do you know anyone else who would use an ornate capital letter of their surname , then a bog standard one a while later?
Second and third aren't the same at all .
The third one is messy ,
although I bet the pen will get the blame

[Wickerman]

Bethnal Green Botherer/Britannia Man would not have been the Ripper. I reckon the Ripper was only out doing "business" from 0.00am to about 0.530am at the latest. Aaron Kozminski could have been the BGB.

The Britannia-man was out on the street at 3:00 am.

Do you know what Aaron Kozminski looked like?

[Wickerman]

She may have been a casual prostitute in the past, but it doesn't mean it was her dream job!

How do you define 'casual prostitute'? - was Kelly a seamstress or laundress, who turned to prostitution only when she had to?
What other work do we know she did?
When in the West End she lived in a brothel, the same story in Breezers Hill, she co-habited with prostitutes.

Then you add the testimony of Mrs Harvey....

.... "She told me, too, that she was heartily sick of the life she was leading and wished she had money enough to go back to Ireland......

What life was she leading John?
What was the occupation noted on her death certificate?

Is this like Nelson's "I see no ships!"

There's also zero proof that she was soliciting on the night she was murdered.

Why do you reach for that old "proof" card?

The only indication we have is from two witnesses: Hutchinson (a very questionable witness in my opinion), ....

Why do you trust your own opinion above that of Abberline?
What do you know that he didn't?
Or conversely, have you ever considered the question - "what did Abberline know that I don't"?
And, between the two of you, who is likely to know more about Hutchinson's encounter, you or Abberline?

.....and Cox. However, as Abby points out Blotchy may been someone known to Kelly. And that's assuming he existed.

Abby is promoting the Peak-cap man.

I mean, the police don't seem to have focussed their subsequent investigations on blotchy-faced suspects ...

We have press reports that counter that argument - the police were still looking for Blotchy & Astrachan on 19th Nov., a full ten days after the murder, as reported in the Echo.

Cox also claimed Kelly was extremely drunk, even though the police could find no publican who remembered serving her with drink.

Cox followed Kelly down the passage, she couldn't tell Kelly was drunk by the way she walked. Only by the way she spoke when she said goodnight. most people who are "very much intoxicated" can't walk straight.

[Sam Flynn]

Only in ripperology, could three different capitals of a surname on three different pages of a statement , be perfectly acceptable lol

It's only different on the first page - the one page where, oddly enough, there's another, very similar "H" written by a copper at the top to indicate "H" Division. The "H"s are exactly the same on the next two pages of the Witness Statement, and there are several other examples of the same matching "H" on George Topping Hutchinson's marriage certificate and the 1911 Census. In short, we have at least 11 "H"s in later documents that were signed by Toppy which match the "H"s on pages 2 and 3 of the Witness Statement. All the other letters match, too.

[packers stem]

No it didn't, and I am being objective. Toppy and Witness both consistently had a long crossbar on the "t" which touched, if not bisected, the stem of the lower-case "h" - Aussie George never does this. Toppy and Witness both consistently displaced the dots on their "i"s way off to the right - Aussie George's dots his "is" in line with the stem. Toppy and Witness consistently wrote their "G" with the lower loop extending below the line of the signature - Aussie George's "G"s were written entirely above the line, lower loop and all. The only difference - the only one - between Toppy and Witness is the use of one flowery "H" on one page of the witness statement, and even Witness doesn't use the same capital "H" again on the next two pages... whose capital "H"s match those of Toppy, too.

Academic now, because - as you've discovered - Stephen Senise's diligence has shown that Aussie George wasn't in the country during the Autumn of Terror.

Only in ripperology, could three different capitals of a surname on three different pages of a statement , be perfectly acceptable lol

[packers stem]

Hi
Toppy is flavour of the month Yippee.
Regards Richard.

So it was Randolph Churchill after all .....

[Roy Corduroy]

Mr. A: I insist the cachous are the key to Liz's murder and the Double Event.

Mr. B: No, no, a thousand times no. She was found holding a Fanny Mortimer's@ Chicken Bullion Cube.

[Busy Beaver]

The "A-man" is the man seen by Hutchinson - aka Astrachan.
The Bethnal Green Botherer is the same as Britannia man. He accosted women in Bethnal Green road then was seen on Friday morning loitering outside the Britannia pub.

Bethnal Green Botherer/Britannia Man would not have been the Ripper. I reckon the Ripper was only out doing "business" from 0.00am to about 0.530am at the latest. Aaron Kozminski could have been the BGB.

[John G]

or the men all seen with stride that night where the same man-peaked cap man. seen by marshall, Schwartz, smith.(perhaps brown and packer) any way its not really classic prostitute/client behavior is it? meandering about, chit chatting, spending alot of time with etc?[/QUOTE]

Hi Abby,

Yes, that's certainly possible. And a quiet stroll around the neighbourhood is definitely not classic prostitute/client behaviour!