Hutch's Man

[harry]

Jon,
It is you that is questioning Hutchinson's accuracy also.You could be wrong.He may have had a watch,despite your doubts.Lewis may have been wrong about the time.These are unknowns.I know she was referring to tthe church clock.That may have been wrong.
The distance to the court however can be gauged more accurately.and the sequence of events,as you describe them, could not have happened.She would have observed the couple standing still.H er evidence states otherwise.

[Michael W Richards]

I see what you mean Joshua, but this was not a Stride murder. No-one just killed Kelly and left. Whoever the killer was he was estimated to have been occupied for how long, an hour or two?, so he would still be there when Lewis arrived.
The Coroner was interested in the loiterer, only seen by Lewis.
And, if we assume Kelly was dead at this time, then the coroner may have queried what was the role of this loiterer?
The other person the coroner showed interest in was the man outside the Britannia, again, seen by Lewis.

The loiterer was of great interest from Friday on, and is likely the primary reason we finally see a Pardon for Accomplices on the table Saturday afternoon. I think its safe to assume they wondered if this man was on the lookout for someone already in the room with Mary at the time. There is a problem then with the cry heard at 3:45..no-one claimed that cry out, that means it could have been from the only woman in the court who couldn't claim it later. If it was Mary, then she is just encountering her killer and still very much intact.

If that's the case, then the killer could have lots of time in the room, and to still get out of it quietly before sunrise. There is a report that states Elizabeth knocked on Marys room that morning around 5, as she was heading out to market. Too bad she didn't glance in the window, we could have saved 'Corrie" Maxwell some confrontation.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
It is you that is questioning Hutchinson's accuracy also.You could be wrong.He may have had a watch,despite your doubts.

Harry.

Hutchinson said this:
"I am able to fix the time, as it was between ten and five minutes to two o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church."
(This church is down on Whitechapel High St.)

And...
"When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck three o'clock".
(This was Spitalfields church at the end of Dorset street)

If he wore a watch, he wouldn't have judged the time by two different the church clocks.
C'mon Harry, put your thinking cap on.

Lewis may have been wrong about the time.These are unknowns.I know she was referring to tthe church clock.That may have been wrong.

I know it could have been wrong, but both Lewis and Hutchinson referred to the same Spitalfields clock, and so did Kennedy, so it doesn't really matter if the clock was wrong. They are all wrong by the same amount.

The distance to the court however can be gauged more accurately.and the sequence of events,as you describe them, could not have happened.She would have observed the couple standing still.H er evidence states otherwise.

This argument is not clear. Lewis does not say if the couple was standing still for any length of time.
I think the distance from the end of Dorset street to Millers Court was about 110ft on the Goads Plan, so what is it you think could not have happened?

[Wickerman]

The loiterer was of great interest from Friday on, and is likely the primary reason we finally see a Pardon for Accomplices on the table Saturday afternoon. I think its safe to assume they wondered if this man was on the lookout for someone already in the room with Mary at the time.

Yes!, I think you are right Michael.
It was believed Mary was already dead by 2:00 (or thereabouts), so the Coroner was interested in this loiterer because he may have been an accomplice, and the killer was still in Mary's room when Lewis came to Millers Court.

At least two newspapers, one being the Star, boldly claimed that Cox had seen the murderer, that the murderer was Blotchy.

We can imagine the faces of Scotland Yard when Hutchinson walked in to Commercial Street Station, and said what he did.

There is a problem then with the cry heard at 3:45..no-one claimed that cry out, that means it could have been from the only woman in the court who couldn't claim it later. If it was Mary, then she is just encountering her killer and still very much intact.

If that's the case, then the killer could have lots of time in the room, and to still get out of it quietly before sunrise. There is a report that states Elizabeth knocked on Marys room that morning around 5, as she was heading out to market. Too bad she didn't glance in the window, we could have saved 'Corrie" Maxwell some confrontation.

Perhaps the Coroner was pleased when Prater claimed these cries were a common occurrence. This gets him off the hook in needing to explain how the cry fit the theory, if Kelly was already dead.

[Joshua Rogan]

At least two newspapers, one being the Star, boldly claimed that Cox had seen the murderer, that the murderer was Blotchy.

It might be worth noting that the Star reporter left the inquest to file his copy after Cox's evidence but before Lewis took the stand.

[harry]

Jon ,
Quite true the initial timing was from church clocks,and if both Lewis and Hutchinson are correct,we have Hutchinson arriving at the court about 2.15,and Lewis,according to her testimony,arriving at 2.30.Again Jon, it was you that first mentioned watch.So what I think could not have happened is,both Hutchinson and Lewis arriving in Dorset Street within seconds of each other, and seeing the same couple,would describe the situation differently.

[Wickerman]

It might be worth noting that the Star reporter left the inquest to file his copy after Cox's evidence but before Lewis took the stand.

Quite true, but even a week later Blotchy was still the joint prime suspect, along with Hutchinson's Astrachan, at least this is what the Echo reported.

The police have not relaxed their endeavours to hunt down the murderer in the slightest degree; but so far they remain without any direct clue. Some of the authorities are inclined to place most reliance upon the statement made by Hutchinson as to his having seen the latest victim with a gentlemanly man of dark complexion, with a dark moustache. Others are disposed to think that the shabby man with a blotchy face and a carrotty moustache described by the witness Mary Ann Cox, is more likely to be the murderer.
Echo, 19 Nov.

[Wickerman]

Jon ,
Quite true the initial timing was from church clocks,and if both Lewis and Hutchinson are correct,we have Hutchinson arriving at the court about 2.15,and Lewis,according to her testimony,arriving at 2.30.

We've been over this before Harry.
In her inquest testimony Lewis claims to have been at the Keylers at 2:30.
"I was at her house at half past 2 on Friday morning".

This is not arriving at the Keylers, but she knows she was there at 2:30 because the Spitalfields clock chimed on the half hour.
We do not know what time she arrived there, she doesn't say.

[harry]

No Jon,she does say,in her evidence to Aberline,that she arrived at the Keelers at 2.30 Arrived at. So of course she was at the Keelers at 2.30,but she was not there before that time,therefor she was not in Dorset Street about 2.15, when Hutchinson was following Kelly and her companion.

[Wickerman]

No Jon,she does say,in her evidence to Aberline,that she arrived at the Keelers at 2.30 Arrived at. So of course she was at the Keelers at 2.30,but she was not there before that time,therefor she was not in Dorset Street about 2.15, when Hutchinson was following Kelly and her companion.

I suggest you check your sources Harry.
This is her police statement to Abberline, in its entirety.

Police Statement, 9^th Nov. 1888.

Statement of Sarah Lewis No 34 Great Pearl Street Spitalfields, a laundress.
Between 2 and 3 o'clock this morning I came to stop with the Keylers, at No 2 Millers Court as I had had a few words with my husband, when I came up the Court there was a man standing over against the lodging house on the opposite side in Dorset St. [talking to a female – deleted] but I cannot describe him. Shortly before 4 o'clock I heard a scream like that of a young woman, and seemed to be not far away, she screamed out murder, I only heard it once. I did not look out at the window. I did not know the deceased.

[marginal note – “I left the Keylers at 5:30pm”]

Sarah Lewis further said that when in company with another female on Wednesday evening last at Bethnal Green, a suspicious man accosted her, he carried a black bag.

[Wickerman]

This makes no sense Jon. To use your own argument, what possible interest would the court have in hearing Lewis' evidence at all, if they already believed Kelly was dead by the time Sarah arrived at the Keyler's?

Just to expand on a point made by Michael, that of the Pardon.

If we look at the official memo's, all dated 10th Nov., it is clear this Pardon should only be considered for the Kelly murder. It is explicitly stated that there were circumstances in this murder that were not apparent in the previous murders.
The Pardon is to be offered to "any accomplice" who did not contrive or take part in the murder itself.

This again casts light on the testimony of Sarah Lewis, and the potential role of a man who she saw watching the court.

Interestingly, the one mention we have of the offer of a Pardon, dated 23 Nov. appears to allude to the fact it did not work in that case, but should be considered for the previous cases.
Matthews, in his reply mentions "certain circumstances", and these circumstance relate to their belief in an accomplice who after the crime may had assisted the murderer.
If this whole Pardon episode was because they thought the loiterer was an accomplice, then we can see why it did not materialize.
There seems to have been a belief that Kelly was dead before Lewis arrived at Millers Court, and the Pardon may have been directed at enticing the loiterer (as an assistant after the crime), to come forward.

[harry]

I have checked my sources Jon.The time given for Lewis's arrival at Millers court was 2.30 AM.

[Wickerman]

I have checked my sources Jon.The time given for Lewis's arrival at Millers court was 2.30 AM.

Go on Harry, surprise me. Which newspaper version have you selected that says something different to what was said at the inquest?

[harry]

Jon,
Suppose you surprise me.Which one did you select.Perhaps my source was not from a newspaper.

[Michael W Richards]

Jon, the issues I would have with the notion of Mary being dead by 2:30 are these...is it feasible to presume that the killer did all that work in near darkness? The room was reported as such by 2 witnesses, before 1:30am that night. There are comings and goings throughout the night according to one courtyard witness, if Mary is dead by 2:30 what on earth is the killer still doing in the room,..perhaps until around 6am. Hes a trapped rat in that room.

I think Blotchy is the best suspect here, for one we KNOW he entered the room that night with Mary, we have a courtyard resident that confirms that fact. And for another, it would seem that we cannot confirm he left that room before 1:30..only that is was dark and quiet by then. But I still cant wrap my head around a killer who I suppose could accomplish what was done in near darkness in what, an hour or so?..then staying in the room afterwards while hearing bootsteps pass the door throughout the night. The trapped rat thing.