Hutch's Man

[Leanne]

maybe he was using the privy. I really don't think the ripper did go down passage ways, where he would easily have been cornered. Mjk's room was what- a foot from the street?, so he probably decided it was an ok place to go, do a murder and take off without being noticed. Which does still lead me to think the killer was local and knew where and where not to go, although the stride murder was almost his downfall (if he was the killer). So, if he did not go up the court on his own accord that leaves three men who could have been the killer- blotchy, astrachan man and aman/bgb. The ripper as i see him, would not allow himself to be seen, hence why most witnesses only saw the back of him and these three men were noticed, two with pretty good descriptions. And going back around the round about, perhaps that was why the murders suddenly stopped? i'm done with the brick walls and brick perverbials. Busy beaver

a foot from the street?

[Busy Beaver]

a foot from the street?

Well not that far, where the Ripper could run out the door, through the court and into Oblivion. (as always). By the way Leeann, what is the vacant box behind the back shop with the gas lamp outside?

[Cogidubnus]

It's one of the Tenement Houses as marked just above

Dave

[Curious Cat]

The inquest record is incomplete, for the reason's I already gave.



Which is the same as saying no-one could follow anyone down Dorset street, at any time for any reason. It's just impossible.
Really?




I don't see why you think he was out of eyeline with what he claims. No-one has mentioned anything like this before.

I have stood outside the Queen's Head pub on Commercial Street and looked south. He would not have been able to see Mary Kelly and Astrachan until they were at the southern corner of Fashion Street. How could he have seen what they were doing before they reached that point?

[Wickerman]

Just a figure of speech Jon? Why use it?It was just as easy to nominate a reasonable distance.Your one to two minutes was a claim,now when you realise even a minute would equate to about 80 yards and make your reasonings false,you want to discard it.
You continually use Hutchinson as being honest and precise.Now you are trying to turn his three minutes into just seconds.Why could he be so wrong about that,but so accurate abought everything else he claimed?

How did he measure three minutes?

[Wickerman]

No I don't, and no it isn't.I'm thinking things through.

In fact, I've thought things through, and have nothing more to say, other than - you're wrong.

There's another assumption.


Face it, you cannot justify dismissing this couple passing up the court.
There's nothing in Lewis's testimony to suggest they went anywhere else. You simply do not like it, so you refuse to accept it.

[Wickerman]

I have stood outside the Queen's Head pub on Commercial Street and looked south. He would not have been able to see Mary Kelly and Astrachan until they were at the southern corner of Fashion Street. How could he have seen what they were doing before they reached that point?

I see no issue here, no-one else has either.

If you read Hutchinson's statement sentence by sentence, he does not say he could see them down by Thrawl st.
- Hutch meets Mary between Thrawl St. and Flower & Dean. This is where they talked.
- Kelly walks by herself towards Thrawl st.
- Either at, or just before Thrawl st. Kelly meets Astrachan. They exchange words and Hutch could hear them, but Hutch does not say where he was standing.
- Hutch then stands under the Queens Head lamp, 74 Comm. street, (on N/E corner of Fashion st. and Comm. St.) where he waited for them both to pass him by.

So, the bit you are missing is where Hutch says he could hear their exchange, you do not know where he was standing.

From what Hutch says it seems Kelly & Astrachan stopped for a moment by or near Thrawl street. While he (Hutch) was still standing where Kelly left him - part way between Thrawl and Flower & Dean. Only feet away from them.
At some point they had to begin walking back towards him (Hutch), obviously the light was not good enough where Hutch was standing (just south of Flower & Dean) so he walked on ahead of them to the first good lamp - outside the Queens Head. Where he waited for them to pass.

Where is there a problem?

[Wickerman]

Whatever the order of the events in her account were given, she still doesn't say the couple entered the passage.

It's likely fair to accept that few of the replies attributed to Lewis are her actual words.
Everyone, from the court recorder to members of the press likely paraphrased her words. So we cannot be completely sure which are her words and which are paraphrase.

She wouldn't be able to miss two people stopping at or entering No.13. She make no mention of having such a close encounter with them at such a crucial point. The loiterer and the couple Lewis describes are all in Dorset Street as they are all ahead of her. Only she of the four people enters the passage.

Given that Hodgkinson the recorder merely wrote, "a man & a woman passed along", it should be clear the court had no interest in these two people. And, there was no reason they should, they were two unknowns. So, whatever else Sarah Lewis said about them was not captured.

You are looking at her testimony as if that is all there is to it, and if she didn't say something, then it never happened. Which tells me you are not familiar with these court proceedings.
Very little is reported in the press concerning these two strangers, and the Times didn't even bother mentioning them at all.

Mary Cox had already given her evidence before Lewis, the press subsequently announced it was Cox who had seen the murderer - Blotchy.
Dr. Phillips, who was present & the Coroner Mcdonald, who was also a physician, both likely knew about Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, which was written on the 10th. This time correlated very well with the possibility that Blotchy has killed Mary between 1:00 - 2:00 am.

What possible interest would the court have in two strangers seen by Sarah Lewis?

However, it was the sudden appearance of Hutchinson after the inquest which threw the investigation into a spin.
Now, they have a witness who claims that Kelly was alive after 2:00am, but the inquest was over.

Posters here have tried to argue this couple going up the court would be important, not so. By the time Lewis gave her evidence the court had already heard enough to accept that Kelly was dead by 2:00am, and the later cry of murder was just another of those regular false alarms heard from time to time.

[harry]

Jon,
How did Hutchinson measure three minutes?He counted one-two-three.
Seriously,the time is approximate,but it must have appeared to him( Hutchinson) a reasonably lengthy period.More I would say,than the few seconds it would have taken Lewis to reach the court,if the situation had been how you describe.

[Joshua Rogan]

It's likely fair to accept that few of the replies attributed to Lewis are her actual words.
Everyone, from the court recorder to members of the press likely paraphrased her words. So we cannot be completely sure which are her words and which are paraphrase.



Given that Hodgkinson the recorder merely wrote, "a man & a woman passed along", it should be clear the court had no interest in these two people. And, there was no reason they should, they were two unknowns. So, whatever else Sarah Lewis said about them was not captured.

You are looking at her testimony as if that is all there is to it, and if she didn't say something, then it never happened. Which tells me you are not familiar with these court proceedings.
Very little is reported in the press concerning these two strangers, and the Times didn't even bother mentioning them at all.

Mary Cox had already given her evidence before Lewis, the press subsequently announced it was Cox who had seen the murderer - Blotchy.
Dr. Phillips, who was present & the Coroner Mcdonald, who was also a physician, both likely knew about Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, which was written on the 10th. This time correlated very well with the possibility that Blotchy has killed Mary between 1:00 - 2:00 am.

What possible interest would the court have in two strangers seen by Sarah Lewis?

However, it was the sudden appearance of Hutchinson after the inquest which threw the investigation into a spin.
Now, they have a witness who claims that Kelly was alive after 2:00am, but the inquest was over.

Posters here have tried to argue this couple going up the court would be important, not so. By the time Lewis gave her evidence the court had already heard enough to accept that Kelly was dead by 2:00am, and the later cry of murder was just another of those regular false alarms heard from time to time.

This makes no sense Jon. To use your own argument, what possible interest would the court have in hearing Lewis' evidence at all, if they already believed Kelly was dead by the time Sarah arrived at the Keyler's?

[Wickerman]

This makes no sense Jon. To use your own argument, what possible interest would the court have in hearing Lewis' evidence at all, if they already believed Kelly was dead by the time Sarah arrived at the Keyler's?

I see what you mean Joshua, but this was not a Stride murder. No-one just killed Kelly and left. Whoever the killer was he was estimated to have been occupied for how long, an hour or two?, so he would still be there when Lewis arrived.
The Coroner was interested in the loiterer, only seen by Lewis.
And, if we assume Kelly was dead at this time, then the coroner may have queried what was the role of this loiterer?
The other person the coroner showed interest in was the man outside the Britannia, again, seen by Lewis.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
How did Hutchinson measure three minutes?He counted one-two-three.
Seriously,the time is approximate,but it must have appeared to him( Hutchinson) a reasonably lengthy period.More I would say,than the few seconds it would have taken Lewis to reach the court,if the situation had been how you describe.

Yes, both his "three minutes" and his "forty five minutes" were estimates.

But back to your point, you questioned Hutch's accuracy?
I put more value in a sequence of events, and I've said so more than once. Precisely because we cannot always depend on the times given. It is not necessary to blindly insist on Kelly & Astrachan standing for three minutes, what is necessary is that they stood there sufficient time to say & do what was described. That is all.
If that would only take 90 seconds, then so be it.

[Curious Cat]

It's likely fair to accept that few of the replies attributed to Lewis are her actual words.
Everyone, from the court recorder to members of the press likely paraphrased her words. So we cannot be completely sure which are her words and which are paraphrase.



Given that Hodgkinson the recorder merely wrote, "a man & a woman passed along", it should be clear the court had no interest in these two people. And, there was no reason they should, they were two unknowns. So, whatever else Sarah Lewis said about them was not captured.

You are looking at her testimony as if that is all there is to it, and if she didn't say something, then it never happened. Which tells me you are not familiar with these court proceedings.
Very little is reported in the press concerning these two strangers, and the Times didn't even bother mentioning them at all.

Mary Cox had already given her evidence before Lewis, the press subsequently announced it was Cox who had seen the murderer - Blotchy.
Dr. Phillips, who was present & the Coroner Mcdonald, who was also a physician, both likely knew about Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, which was written on the 10th. This time correlated very well with the possibility that Blotchy has killed Mary between 1:00 - 2:00 am.

What possible interest would the court have in two strangers seen by Sarah Lewis?

However, it was the sudden appearance of Hutchinson after the inquest which threw the investigation into a spin.
Now, they have a witness who claims that Kelly was alive after 2:00am, but the inquest was over.

Posters here have tried to argue this couple going up the court would be important, not so. By the time Lewis gave her evidence the court had already heard enough to accept that Kelly was dead by 2:00am, and the later cry of murder was just another of those regular false alarms heard from time to time.

Surely that in itself suggests Sarah Lewis made no mention of them going into/up/through the passage, otherwise the court would have been interested in further details and ask more questions.

So where do you get that Sarah Lewis saw the couple entered the passage?

[Curious Cat]

I see no issue here, no-one else has either.

If you read Hutchinson's statement sentence by sentence, he does not say he could see them down by Thrawl st.
- Hutch meets Mary between Thrawl St. and Flower & Dean. This is where they talked.
- Kelly walks by herself towards Thrawl st.
- Either at, or just before Thrawl st. Kelly meets Astrachan. They exchange words and Hutch could hear them, but Hutch does not say where he was standing.
- Hutch then stands under the Queens Head lamp, 74 Comm. street, (on N/E corner of Fashion st. and Comm. St.) where he waited for them both to pass him by.

So, the bit you are missing is where Hutch says he could hear their exchange, you do not know where he was standing.

From what Hutch says it seems Kelly & Astrachan stopped for a moment by or near Thrawl street. While he (Hutch) was still standing where Kelly left him - part way between Thrawl and Flower & Dean. Only feet away from them.
At some point they had to begin walking back towards him (Hutch), obviously the light was not good enough where Hutch was standing (just south of Flower & Dean) so he walked on ahead of them to the first good lamp - outside the Queens Head. Where he waited for them to pass.

Where is there a problem?

Hutchinson says he watched Astrachan from his position outside the Queen's Head pub. This was before Astrachan and Mary Kelly had reached him. But at that position you can only see someone when they reach the corner of Fashion Street. How can Hutchinson have watched Astrachan before he approached when he would've been out of his eyeline?

[Sam Flynn]

Hutchinson says he watched Astrachan from his position outside the Queen's Head pub. This was before Astrachan and Mary Kelly had reached him. But at that position you can only see someone when they reach the corner of Fashion Street. How can Hutchinson have watched Astrachan before he approached when he would've been out of his eyeline?

Quite. Hutchinson's testimony is full of holes.