Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[Sam Flynn]

Could the Ripper have been unsatisfied by his first attempt and then change to one which proved more satisfying?

I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.

[etenguy]

From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.

This I think is the strongest argument to discount Martha Tabram's murder being committed by the Ripper.

However, I work in education. I have seen learners attempt a task and mess it up. The next time they attempt the same task, they often take a very different approach. Could the Ripper have been unsatisfied by his first attempt and then change to one which proved more satisfying?

[etenguy]

You don't have to conclude it was a bayonet, you only have to follow Killeen's description of the weapon as a "dagger". Something, which in length and breadth, can be very similar to bayonets of the period.

And yet it was Killeen who suggested it was not likely to have been a bayonet.

The evidence suggests that she was killed with 2 weapons, one considerably smaller used in all but one wound. That doesn't suggest 1 man switching blades, that suggests a second person with a larger blade. The evidence of the soldiers is only relevant in that soldiers, and perhaps other men, were travelling in pairs that night. And the Bank Holiday allowed them to carry weapons that were dagger sized on their person.

I doubt whether the killer, if not a soldier, was bothered about adhering to who could and could not carry weapons,

Since only soldiers were allowed to carry those large bladed instruments openly on the street that night, and since we know soldiers were travelling in pairs that night, due to the soldier waiting for a mate, and since we have murder evidence that suggests 2 men and 1 larger sized blade, then its not too hard to connect the dots. For some.

You can connect the dots that way - perfectly plausible. But not the only speculation that is plausible.

[Scott Nelson]

Paddy, yes, that's been seen before. It has nothing to do with 'our' Martha Tabram.

Was that account in your book Tom? I find it interesting, but I was never sent a review copy so can't comment any further.

[Harry D]

From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.

For once we actually agree, Michael. That’s one of the reasons I’ve sat on the fence about Tabram. There are circumstantial similarities to the other murders but I can’t see the killer’s signature evolving to that degree within a month.

[Michael W Richards]

From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.

[Michael W Richards]

My reading of the evidence is that it is insufficient to conclude a bayonet was used in the stabbing of Martha Tabram.

The soldier as murderer conclusion, while possible, is also uncertain. The only evidence is that one (might I suggest unreliable) witness states Martha was with a soldier much earlier that night and a policeman who challenged a soldier close to the murder scene was told he was waiting for a chum who had gone with a girl. This soldier was early to mid 20s. Describing Martha Tabram as a girl might have been a stretch.

Whether Martha had been drinking with Pearly poll and soldiers earlier or not, and whether Martha had entertained a soldier's friend during the evening, or not. There is no evidence either was the killer.

I am more convinced by Abby's argument that this was an early murder of the ripper, for the reasons she has provided. It would fit with the escalation and refinement of technique and MO as the ripper murders progressed.

You don't have to conclude it was a bayonet, you only have to follow Killeen's description of the weapon as a "dagger". Something, which in length and breadth, can be very similar to bayonets of the period.

The evidence suggests that she was killed with 2 weapons, one considerably smaller used in all but one wound. That doesn't suggest 1 man switching blades, that suggests a second person with a larger blade. The evidence of the soldiers is only relevant in that soldiers, and perhaps other men, were travelling in pairs that night. And the Bank Holiday allowed them to carry weapons that were dagger sized on their person.

Since only soldiers were allowed to carry those large bladed instruments openly on the street that night, and since we know soldiers were travelling in pairs that night, due to the soldier waiting for a mate, and since we have murder evidence that suggests 2 men and 1 larger sized blade, then its not too hard to connect the dots. For some.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abby, good to see you as well!

Etenguy, thanks for saying that. In my book I quote a police document suggesting it was not believed a bayonet had anything to do with the murder. In fact, if you study the literature at the time, it's clear a bayonet was only suggested because of idea that soldier had killed Tabram. Tabram was not seen in the company of a soldier that night. She may have been murdered by a soldier, or a baker, a doctor, take your pick. But there's nothing in evidence to compel that a soldier be given any special consideration. This is why by the time of Polly Nichols murder, the soldier theory was dead in the water.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Paddy, yes, that's been seen before. It has nothing to do with 'our' Martha Tabram.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[etenguy]

Barrett's speaking with a soldier has no direct bearing on the murder of Tabram at all, Killeen did not offer a bayonet as a likely murder weapon, and Pearly Poll's story doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny.

Tom Wescott

Thought I'd mention I found your book most interesting.

[GUT]

Has this been seen before?

I have seen it, or similar before, but I’m not sure it was here or another place.

[Paddy]

Published: Saturday 09 October 1869 Newspaper: Globe

Has this been seen before?

[Abby Normal]

Barrett's speaking with a soldier has no direct bearing on the murder of Tabram at all, Killeen did not offer a bayonet as a likely murder weapon, and Pearly Poll's story doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
good to see you again : )

[Abby Normal]

My reading of the evidence is that it is insufficient to conclude a bayonet was used in the stabbing of Martha Tabram.

The soldier as murderer conclusion, while possible, is also uncertain. The only evidence is that one (might I suggest unreliable) witness states Martha was with a soldier much earlier that night and a policeman who challenged a soldier close to the murder scene was told he was waiting for a chum who had gone with a girl. This soldier was early to mid 20s. Describing Martha Tabram as a girl might have been a stretch.

Whether Martha had been drinking with Pearly poll and soldiers earlier or not, and whether Martha had entertained a soldier's friend during the evening, or not. There is no evidence either was the killer.

I am more convinced by Abby's argument that this was an early murder of the ripper, for the reasons she has provided. It would fit with the escalation and refinement of technique and MO as the ripper murders progressed.

Thanks eten, however, it still dosnt rule out a "soldier". the soldier could have been the ripper. I'm about 50/50 on whether it was a soldier/ripper or just the ripper (not a soldier) who came upon her after her fun with the soldiers, indeed if she even was with soldiers that night.

and fyi-I'm a dude

[Tom_Wescott]

The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

PC Barrett
Dr. Killeen
Pearly Poll

How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?

Barrett's speaking with a soldier has no direct bearing on the murder of Tabram at all, Killeen did not offer a bayonet as a likely murder weapon, and Pearly Poll's story doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott