Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[DirectorDave]

Is a Bayonet that much different....





From an amputation knife?

[Sam Flynn]

I could do with a ruler in those pictures, Dave, but I'm guessing that an amputation knife stuck on the end of a rifle would look fairly puny.

[DirectorDave]

Hi Sam,

They both come in many sizes...but I do remember Don Rumbelow's "Ripper Knife" and Lance Corporal Jones' Bayonet not being too dissimilar in size.

I just think we can't rule out the possibility the postmortem being tailored to the witness sighting which could have been a load of nonsense.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Sam,

They both come in many sizes...but I do remember Don Rumbelow's "Ripper Knife" and Lance Corporal Jones' Bayonet not being too dissimilar in size.

I just think we can't rule out the possibility the postmortem being tailored to the witness sighting which could have been a load of nonsense.

Hi DD
I’m no expert on knives but I think the surgical knife is not as sturdy or large as a dagger or bayonet, both which are used for thrusting and stabbing as opposed to cutting and disecting.

[Wickerman]

For what its worth, this is a period military issue penknife/claspknife.




This is the 1888 military issue bayonet.

[DirectorDave]

Hey Abby, Jon,

That contemporary bayonet certainly looks more sturdy than Jonesey's....they certainly wouldn't like that up em.

I'm sure with just about every new book claiming a "modern look" at the crime, someone, somewhere must have done some cadaver work on the type of blades mentioned?

[Wickerman]

Hi Dave.

Of course, there's no guarantee what type of bayonet Killeen had in mind, British or European. There was an earlier version similar to the one above which was a single-sided blade with a stout back. The older bayonets were still around but they were long, too long to use as a practical weapon.
Killeen did say "dagger" which normally means double-sided as I show, but we can't be sure.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For what its worth, this is a period military issue penknife/claspknife.




This is the 1888 military issue bayonet.

Did you inherit those bayonets Jon

[Michael W Richards]

But, Chapman and Nichols didn`t say "I`m off to find a man for money".
Chapman may have been looking for Ted Stanley to borrow some money, and Nichols may have been looking for whomever bought her drinks earlier in the evening.

I think Jon that Annie admitted to being out to "earn" her doss and feeling terrible while doing so, I don't believe there are any grounds to assume that she meant anything else but solicitation, and that Polly admitted to "earning" and then drinking those earnings before she saw the confidante she confessed to. Seems like she was enjoying herself too.

I don't see any other references within the C5 that confirm that activity on the respective murder nights.

[Michael W Richards]

I think the bayonet was suggested because it may have been broader, studier and double edged. Many bayonets of the period were.

[etenguy]

I think the bayonet was suggested because it may have been broader, studier and double edged. Many bayonets of the period were.

My reading of the evidence is that it is insufficient to conclude a bayonet was used in the stabbing of Martha Tabram.

The soldier as murderer conclusion, while possible, is also uncertain. The only evidence is that one (might I suggest unreliable) witness states Martha was with a soldier much earlier that night and a policeman who challenged a soldier close to the murder scene was told he was waiting for a chum who had gone with a girl. This soldier was early to mid 20s. Describing Martha Tabram as a girl might have been a stretch.

Whether Martha had been drinking with Pearly poll and soldiers earlier or not, and whether Martha had entertained a soldier's friend during the evening, or not. There is no evidence either was the killer.

I am more convinced by Abby's argument that this was an early murder of the ripper, for the reasons she has provided. It would fit with the escalation and refinement of technique and MO as the ripper murders progressed.

[Tom_Wescott]

The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

PC Barrett
Dr. Killeen
Pearly Poll

How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?

Barrett's speaking with a soldier has no direct bearing on the murder of Tabram at all, Killeen did not offer a bayonet as a likely murder weapon, and Pearly Poll's story doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

My reading of the evidence is that it is insufficient to conclude a bayonet was used in the stabbing of Martha Tabram.

The soldier as murderer conclusion, while possible, is also uncertain. The only evidence is that one (might I suggest unreliable) witness states Martha was with a soldier much earlier that night and a policeman who challenged a soldier close to the murder scene was told he was waiting for a chum who had gone with a girl. This soldier was early to mid 20s. Describing Martha Tabram as a girl might have been a stretch.

Whether Martha had been drinking with Pearly poll and soldiers earlier or not, and whether Martha had entertained a soldier's friend during the evening, or not. There is no evidence either was the killer.

I am more convinced by Abby's argument that this was an early murder of the ripper, for the reasons she has provided. It would fit with the escalation and refinement of technique and MO as the ripper murders progressed.

Thanks eten, however, it still dosnt rule out a "soldier". the soldier could have been the ripper. I'm about 50/50 on whether it was a soldier/ripper or just the ripper (not a soldier) who came upon her after her fun with the soldiers, indeed if she even was with soldiers that night.

and fyi-I'm a dude

[Abby Normal]

Barrett's speaking with a soldier has no direct bearing on the murder of Tabram at all, Killeen did not offer a bayonet as a likely murder weapon, and Pearly Poll's story doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
good to see you again : )

[Paddy]

Published: Saturday 09 October 1869 Newspaper: Globe

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