Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[etenguy]

I think the bayonet was suggested because it may have been broader, studier and double edged. Many bayonets of the period were.

My reading of the evidence is that it is insufficient to conclude a bayonet was used in the stabbing of Martha Tabram.

The soldier as murderer conclusion, while possible, is also uncertain. The only evidence is that one (might I suggest unreliable) witness states Martha was with a soldier much earlier that night and a policeman who challenged a soldier close to the murder scene was told he was waiting for a chum who had gone with a girl. This soldier was early to mid 20s. Describing Martha Tabram as a girl might have been a stretch.

Whether Martha had been drinking with Pearly poll and soldiers earlier or not, and whether Martha had entertained a soldier's friend during the evening, or not. There is no evidence either was the killer.

I am more convinced by Abby's argument that this was an early murder of the ripper, for the reasons she has provided. It would fit with the escalation and refinement of technique and MO as the ripper murders progressed.

[Michael W Richards]

I think the bayonet was suggested because it may have been broader, studier and double edged. Many bayonets of the period were.

[Michael W Richards]

But, Chapman and Nichols didn`t say "I`m off to find a man for money".
Chapman may have been looking for Ted Stanley to borrow some money, and Nichols may have been looking for whomever bought her drinks earlier in the evening.

I think Jon that Annie admitted to being out to "earn" her doss and feeling terrible while doing so, I don't believe there are any grounds to assume that she meant anything else but solicitation, and that Polly admitted to "earning" and then drinking those earnings before she saw the confidante she confessed to. Seems like she was enjoying herself too.

I don't see any other references within the C5 that confirm that activity on the respective murder nights.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For what its worth, this is a period military issue penknife/claspknife.




This is the 1888 military issue bayonet.

Did you inherit those bayonets Jon

[Wickerman]

Hi Dave.

Of course, there's no guarantee what type of bayonet Killeen had in mind, British or European. There was an earlier version similar to the one above which was a single-sided blade with a stout back. The older bayonets were still around but they were long, too long to use as a practical weapon.
Killeen did say "dagger" which normally means double-sided as I show, but we can't be sure.

[DirectorDave]

Hey Abby, Jon,

That contemporary bayonet certainly looks more sturdy than Jonesey's....they certainly wouldn't like that up em.

I'm sure with just about every new book claiming a "modern look" at the crime, someone, somewhere must have done some cadaver work on the type of blades mentioned?

[Wickerman]

For what its worth, this is a period military issue penknife/claspknife.




This is the 1888 military issue bayonet.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Sam,

They both come in many sizes...but I do remember Don Rumbelow's "Ripper Knife" and Lance Corporal Jones' Bayonet not being too dissimilar in size.

I just think we can't rule out the possibility the postmortem being tailored to the witness sighting which could have been a load of nonsense.

Hi DD
I’m no expert on knives but I think the surgical knife is not as sturdy or large as a dagger or bayonet, both which are used for thrusting and stabbing as opposed to cutting and disecting.

[DirectorDave]

Hi Sam,

They both come in many sizes...but I do remember Don Rumbelow's "Ripper Knife" and Lance Corporal Jones' Bayonet not being too dissimilar in size.

I just think we can't rule out the possibility the postmortem being tailored to the witness sighting which could have been a load of nonsense.

[Sam Flynn]

I could do with a ruler in those pictures, Dave, but I'm guessing that an amputation knife stuck on the end of a rifle would look fairly puny.

[DirectorDave]

Is a Bayonet that much different....





From an amputation knife?

[DirectorDave]

Which came first Pearly Pol's soldier story or the post mortem?

Kelleene's mention of "Sword Bayonet or Dagger" always seemed to be pointing towards the soldier story, perhaps the good Doctor was influenced with the direction of his findings.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Mike

She is either drinking that afternoon or working that afternoon, and the state she is in when picked up suggests the former.

Didn`t people in Eddowes situation have to "work" to be able to drink, and drinking was part of working (ie. they had to get drinks bought for them or be given the money directly).

Not saying its THE answer, just that based on that story she might well have been trying to extort some money from the party she intended to finger first. The reward money might have paled in comparison with a blackmail settlement.

Fair enough.

She said she had earned and spent her doss a few times over, and she had no other occupation that she plied after midnight that I'm aware of. It within the known and accepted data that Polly, and Annie, spoke to witnesses whose statements indicate both women were actively soliciting on the nights they were killed. There is no such evidence, unless Hutchinson clears things up for you, that any other Canonical was actively doing the same.

But, Chapman and Nichols didn`t say "I`m off to find a man for money".
Chapman may have been looking for Ted Stanley to borrow some money, and Nichols may have been looking for whomever bought her drinks earlier in the evening.

[Michael W Richards]

Well, usually the blades on a clasp knife would be different sizes, a small pen blade and a larger pointed blade. And in Bond's profile he suggests Jack used "a strong knife at least six inches long, very sharp, pointed at the top about an inch in width. It may have been a clasp knife, a butcher's knife or a surgeon's knife."
Which sounds like it could have been sturdy enough to deal Tabram a blow to the heart.

I have a relatively large antique knife collection, daggers, bayonets, short swords, pocket knives of every variety, and Ive not come across one that has a blade capable of inflicting a dagger sized wound in a folding format.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

They didn`t just operate at night, Michael
Look at Annie Farmer and the time she picked her man up and went back to George St.

She is either drinking that afternoon or working that afternoon, and the state she is in when picked up suggests the former.


You are kidding, Mike?

Not saying its THE answer, just that based on that story she might well have been trying to extort some money from the party she intended to finger first. The reward money might have paled in comparison with a blackmail settlement.

She didn`t say that, though, did she ?

She said she had earned and spent her doss a few times over, and she had no other occupation that she plied after midnight that I'm aware of. It within the known and accepted data that Polly, and Annie, spoke to witnesses whose statements indicate both women were actively soliciting on the nights they were killed. There is no such evidence, unless Hutchinson clears things up for you, that any other Canonical was actively doing the same.