Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[Sam Flynn]

It is interesting, Martin, thanks, and thanks for bringing my attention to Mudcat. However, "catch me if/when you can" is a common enough expression used by taunters of all backgrounds and nationalities, so I don't think we can pin it to that ditty about the fictional Harvey Duff.

[martin wilson]

Over at conspiracy corner it's noted that the man asking for George Lusk's address on the 15th of October had an Irish accent according to Miss Marsh.

The From Hell letter MAY have contained a reference a policeman investigating Fenian activities would have recognised.

Catch me when you can Mishter Lusk

"Harvey Duff, Can't catch me, catch the little boy/ girl under the tree."

Harvey Duff was a character from the 1873 play The Shaughran, and was a police informer who came to a bad end.

It's unclear if his appearances were accompanied by a whistle or a signature tune but the children's refrain above caught on and was whistled whenever a policeman was seen.
There are variations, and there is a discussion about these on the excellent Mudcat website.
The one I have posted is apparently the one remembered by Brendan Behan..
There is a report that six year old boy was actually arrested in 1881 for whistling it at a policeman in Dublin.

Maybe, maybe not. I thought it was interesting.

[Michael W Richards]

"To Sam, theres no reason to imagine that she wouldn't have known a few bad characters before she went hopping"

It's important to note that we only have one source for the "I think I know him" story, and that's the East London Observer article of 13th October 1888; an article in which more than one account of various theories by local amateur sleuths also appear. Even if this story were true, there's nothing to indicate that Eddowes was any better informed than the others, or any number of such theorists (cf Wickerman's post above), and there was precious little time available to any interested parties to (a) hear about it, (b) work out whether Kate - among innumerable others - possessed any REAL knowledge, and (c) track the wandering Eddowes down.

Sam, I think that I gave you a plausible explanation for what may have occurred had the story by the landlady been accurate. And how Kate herself might have sealed her own fate by doing so. No-one needed to track Kate down, she may have made it known on Friday night her intentions and perhaps her willingness to take a counter offer.

Conventional Motive ideas are not exhausted here Sam, there is a story that may have nothing to do with other random killings. By conventional I mean for relationship based emotions or Money. The 2 most common motives.

[Sam Flynn]

"To Sam, theres no reason to imagine that she wouldn't have known a few bad characters before she went hopping"

It's important to note that we only have one source for the "I think I know him" story, and that's the East London Observer article of 13th October 1888; an article in which more than one account of various theories by local amateur sleuths also appear. Even if this story were true, there's nothing to indicate that Eddowes was any better informed than the others, or any number of such theorists (cf Wickerman's post above), and there was precious little time available to any interested parties to (a) hear about it, (b) work out whether Kate - among innumerable others - possessed any REAL knowledge, and (c) track the wandering Eddowes down.

[Michael W Richards]

Doesn't Kelly find out about Kate's incarceration from the grapevine? A woman tells him, I think. Considering the grapevine was slower in telling him of her death, how did this woman come to know so rapidly that Kate had gone to jail? If he didn't leave his lodges that night, it's a good possibility that this woman dossed there too, knew him and told him. Could she have met Kate in the City before her arrest?

Another question. Do you think Kate sobered up too quickly during her time in jail considering that she was knockdown pist drunk? I know that there was rumour of women drinking out of a goofied flask and passing out.

He does find out from a female friend, but its interesting that he doesn't seem to be worried about where she was. For a couple alleged to have behaved much like man and wife, with habits that include spending each night together, they seem to have broken that pattern the night before her death. It also appears that John wasn't waiting for Kate to meet him that night, even after her incarceration.

To Bridewell, I agree it seems perfectly plausible that the men plying her for drinks knew of her incarceration, and likely knew she was held in a City jail...which meant she would be out at some point that night. It also seems suspicious to me at least that the closest people to Kate geographically at the time she is murdered are police. Pearce, supposedly asleep in the square, Morris the night watchman, the 3 detectives Outram, Marriot and Halse searching nearby alleys, Harvey, Watkins....that's 7 of 7 the people located at or near the site while the murder was being committed.

To Sam, theres no reason to imagine that she wouldn't have known a few bad characters before she went hopping, and her assuming one of these might be the one to be doing these killings locally isn't farfetched. And that could indicate that she knew the person, which would give credence to any claims she might make. If Kate had flogged her story Friday night, she might have been given the word back that someone would meet her the following day to discuss it...people representing the man she suspects, or the man himself. Although I see representatives more probable. She meets whomever, they ply her with free booze, she says enough to convince them she is a threat, and they arrange to meet her later with a fictional payout for her silence.

Lets face it, the story that is given about how the last 24 hours of Kate life went down is flawed and provably incorrect...the date on the pawn ticket as proof. We don't really know where she was all of Friday night....she would not have been released as early as claimed as there were chores to be done,...and we don't know why, or how economically, she finds herself very drunk at 8pm in the City. I'm attempting to sort out the wheat from the chaff and come up with something that is plausible. Considering we have one witness who says she had intentions of giving someones name to the police, there could be some answer that incorporates that information into a story for those unknown hours.

[Wickerman]

I believe that this whole business about Kate knowing (or believing to know) who the Ripper was is a myth.

Agreed.

There would have been scores of people in the neighbourhood who had theories about the Ripper's identity .......

"Everyone has become an amateur detective here, and the favourite pastime in train, in bus, and in the streets is to endeavour to find one's ideal of the unknown miscreant."
Freeman's Journal, 3 Oct. 1888.

"Everybody has a private theory of his own with regard to these crimes, and naturally I have mine.....
In the railway, on the tram, in the omnibus, at the restaurant, in the street, everybody looks at everybody else, and wonders if the other man is the Blanca Cappella Assassino."
George R. Sims, 7 Oct. 1888.

As you say, Eddowes was likely no different.

[Sam Flynn]

Maybe my line of thinking might resonate with you on that point as well...lets say Kate makes it known that she intends to go to the police with a name.

I believe that this whole business about Kate knowing (or believing to know) who the Ripper was is a myth. She'd spent the previous weeks in the hop-fields of Kent, and only arrived back in London one day before she was banged up for being drunk. Not really enough time for her to have formulated a theory of whom she thought the killer was, let alone for word to get out to any "interested parties" who might want to track her down, and not enough time for any "interested parties" to arrange to meet her in order to winkle out her story with some freebie gins.

There would have been scores of people in the neighbourhood who had theories about the Ripper's identity so, even if Kate was one of them (and we only have one suspect source who says that she was), why should this newly-rearrived hop-picker's speculations have been taken any more seriously than anyone else's?

[Bridewell]

Doesn't Kelly find out about Kate's incarceration from the grapevine? A woman tells him, I think. Considering the grapevine was slower in telling him of her death, how did this woman come to know so rapidly that Kate had gone to jail? If he didn't leave his lodges that night, it's a good possibility that this woman dossed there too, knew him and told him. Could she have met Kate in the City before her arrest?

Another question. Do you think Kate sobered up too quickly during her time in jail considering that she was knockdown pist drunk? I know that there was rumour of women drinking out of a goofied flask and passing out.

I doubt if she had fully sobered up when she was released. More likely she was no longer 'drunk and incapable', ie she was adjudged (perhaps unwisely given subsequent events!) to be sufficiently recovered to be capable of looking after herself.

[Bridewell]

Maybe my line of thinking might resonate with you on that point as well...lets say Kate makes it known that she intends to go to the police with a name, and Friday night meets some men who suggest that she might do better financially if she were to deal with that person rather than the police. She agrees to meet them the next day to talk about it, and they ply her with booze to see what she really knows...how deep does her information go. Maybe because the man she suspects is involved with these same men and in other unlawful acts, and that means lots of other names and contacts. She tells them what she knows, they determine she is a threat...and they ask her to meet with one of them at a chosen point later that night. Somewhere where street traffic is virtually nil, and the surrounding buildings don't hold dozens of people who could be potential eye witnesses. Due to her arrest she arrives late, and with relief places her hand on the chest of the man waiting for her...one of the ones that bought her drinks...telling him she was so glad he waited.

For that to work the man waiting for her would have to have known she was in the City Jail, because a more logical time to meet would have been midnight, not 1:30am. Considering this murder has by far the most police within a close proximity to the crime as it occurs, one wonders about a police tip off. And maybe a cordon off of the area.

What if the man she was going to name was a cop, and the men she meets with are cops too. Plainclothed. Maybe in the espionage racket.

Interesting, but I don't see any justification for concluding that the police were implicated. Is it not reasonable to think that the man/men who had been plying her with drink were also witnesses to her arrest - and therefore perfectly well aware of where she was being held?

[Robert St Devil]

For that to work the man waiting for her would have to have known she was in the City Jail

Doesn't Kelly find out about Kate's incarceration from the grapevine? A woman tells him, I think. Considering the grapevine was slower in telling him of her death, how did this woman come to know so rapidly that Kate had gone to jail? If he didn't leave his lodges that night, it's a good possibility that this woman dossed there too, knew him and told him. Could she have met Kate in the City before her arrest?

Another question. Do you think Kate sobered up too quickly during her time in jail considering that she was knockdown pist drunk? I know that there was rumour of women drinking out of a goofied flask and passing out.

[etenguy]

Perhaps Jack penetrated the sternum with such force that the blade stuck. he would have been working in virtual darkness and maybe he meant to slice the abdomen open, from top to bottom instead. He might then have either panicked, thinking she might be still alive, maybe he heard a gurgling noise, and stabbed her in a repeated frenzy with his pen knife before releasing the stronger blade. Or just stabbed Martha repeatedly through sheer frustration, before calming down and managing to release the other blade.

I think it unlikely that the blade stuck in Martha's sternum, or that he was trying to slice the abdomen open. There is no sign that this was the case. But I do believe that the probability is that it was the ripper who murdered her. I think the idea that he panicked, thinking she was still alive, is plausible - likely even. This may indeed have prompted the use of the other knife.

This could explain a couple of things with Polly Nichols. The fact that the wounds to her abdomen are low down and seem to be running vertically IE completely missing the chest bone. Secondly the throat being cut for the first time IE instead of just manually strangling Martha, [ yes i believe that's how Jack subdued his victims ], he cut her throat as well, to make sure she was dead.

The idea that the ripper started to cut throats instead of relying solely on strangulation, following his experience with Martha Tabram, is compelling to me, for the reasons you state. Learning and refining his approach is logical - as is, to my mind, escalating his mutilations to continue to get satisfaction from his deeds, which needed more extreme acts each time.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps Jack penetrated the sternum with such force that the blade stuck. he would have been working in virtual darkness and maybe he meant to slice the abdomen open, from top to bottom instead. He might then have either panicked, thinking she might be still alive, maybe he heard a gurgling noise, and stabbed her in a repeated frenzy with his pen knife before releasing the stronger blade. Or just stabbed Martha repeatedly through sheer frustration, before calming down and managing to release the other blade.
This could explain a couple of things with Polly Nichols. The fact that the wounds to her abdomen are low down and seem to be running vertically IE completely missing the chest bone. Secondly the throat being cut for the first time IE instead of just manually strangling Martha, [ yes i believe that's how Jack subdued his victims ], he cut her throat as well, to make sure she was dead.

[Michael W Richards]

If what you're suggesting is that the person who bought the drinks may have gone on to kill her, I've followed a similar line of thought. The difficulty I encountered with it is:

if the name was his why would she not be giving him a wide berth rather than accepting drinks from him?

conversely, if the name was not his why would he feel the need to wait around and kill her?

Maybe my line of thinking might resonate with you on that point as well...lets say Kate makes it known that she intends to go to the police with a name, and Friday night meets some men who suggest that she might do better financially if she were to deal with that person rather than the police. She agrees to meet them the next day to talk about it, and they ply her with booze to see what she really knows...how deep does her information go. Maybe because the man she suspects is involved with these same men and in other unlawful acts, and that means lots of other names and contacts. She tells them what she knows, they determine she is a threat...and they ask her to meet with one of them at a chosen point later that night. Somewhere where street traffic is virtually nil, and the surrounding buildings don't hold dozens of people who could be potential eye witnesses. Due to her arrest she arrives late, and with relief places her hand on the chest of the man waiting for her...one of the ones that bought her drinks...telling him she was so glad he waited.

For that to work the man waiting for her would have to have known she was in the City Jail, because a more logical time to meet would have been midnight, not 1:30am. Considering this murder has by far the most police within a close proximity to the crime as it occurs, one wonders about a police tip off. And maybe a cordon off of the area.

What if the man she was going to name was a cop, and the men she meets with are cops too. Plainclothed. Maybe in the espionage racket.

[Bridewell]

I would think its a given someone bought Kate drinks, and she is in jail long before any street walkers started their businesses up for the night. Why would someone buy her drinks if not... a) at the very least an acquaintance, or b) he is trying to get her drunk for some reason. My bet would be that he was trying to find out how much she knew, in relation to her claim to her ex landlady about giving the Police a name she believed was the killer at large.

If what you're suggesting is that the person who bought the drinks may have gone on to kill her, I've followed a similar line of thought. The difficulty I encountered with it is:

if the name was his why would she not be giving him a wide berth rather than accepting drinks from him?

conversely, if the name was not his why would he feel the need to wait around and kill her?

[Abby Normal]

I'd never seen this word in this context - it seems my childhood was far less innocent than I'd thought.

We had a lot of silly words we used for things when I was growing up.