What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say?

[Wickerman]

It's possible that Mrs. Maxwell saw Kelly on the Friday morning.

Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time that the door was broken open.

And so, if as reported by The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it puts the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

Regards,

Simon

The Times article you quote does not reference "at the time of his examination" as you suggest. It says from the time he arrived.

"....the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours."

I also doubt very much that Phillips said to that to a reporter, he seemed to have a low view of the press. Though he could have suggested that to a police official, or Dr Bond, and was overheard by someone else.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon.
I would suggest that after the body was discovered, Bond would have offered a educated guess to the police judged on Rigor Mortis findings, , which would have contradicted Mrs Maxwell's sighting, which is why Abberline tried hard to have her doubt her sighting. Yet they still believed it happened in daylight ?
He stated he could not 'break the woman.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard.

Well, Rigor mortis doesn't factor in, and Phillips didn't mention that. Due to her being cut up the body will cool rapidly & algor mortis plus livor mortis are of no use either. Phillips was reported to have said (or overheard?) that the body must have been dead some 5-6 hours, when he arrived about 11:00. Though he admitted the body would cool more rapidly when dissected. Which seems to imply he was trying not to dismiss a later time of death.
As dawn was around 6:30 am, he is not ruling out a daylight murder.

Some speculations were offered based on how congealed the blood on the floor was. Another inexact method.
The fact remains the police had no reliable time of death to work with. All they knew from statements given was she was last seen around midnight, a cry of murder around 3:30-4:00, then seen again around 8:30-9:00 am.

The body as it lay in Millers court offered no clue as to a time of death.

[Simon Wood]

It's possible that Mrs. Maxwell saw Kelly on the Friday morning.

Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time that the door was broken open.

And so, if as reported by The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it puts the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

Regards,

Simon

[Abby Normal]

So, Hutchinson saw his old friend with a strange man on the morning of her death, and didn't think that his evidence might be of at least some use to the police? Oh, wait a minute, he said that he had previously told a policeman, so the argument doesn't actually add up.

Despite the speculative early reports in the press, her time of death had yet to be officially discussed as the inquest had not been held, so this was no reason, or excuse, for his not coming forward sooner.

Exactly sam
No one knew when she was murdered and of course it hutch’s apparent sighting would be relevant.

You think fish is twisted with his lech arguments. You ain’t seen nuthin yet.wait till wicky gets going with his hutch zaniness.lol

[Wickerman]

So, Hutchinson saw his old friend with a strange man on the morning of her death, and didn't think that his evidence might be of at least some use to the police? Oh, wait a minute, he said that he had previously told a policeman, so the argument doesn't actually add up.

Despite the speculative early reports in the press, her time of death had yet to be officially discussed as the inquest had not been held, so this was no reason, or excuse, for his not coming forward sooner.

Swanson wasn't sure if Broadshouldered man was necessarily involved in Strides death, and that was only 15 minutes before her murder.

6-7 hours Gareth, quit making excuses. It doesn't factor in no matter what your argument is.

What was Nichols doing, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, 6-7 hours before their deaths. Who were they with, how many suspects did the police line up for being with them 6-7 hours ahead?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon.
I would suggest that after the body was discovered, Bond would have offered a educated guess to the police judged on Rigor Mortis findings, , which would have contradicted Mrs Maxwell's sighting, which is why Abberline tried hard to have her doubt her sighting. Yet they still believed it happened in daylight ?
He stated he could not 'break the woman.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

The predominant belief, certainly in the press (and apparently the police? - re Times quote), was that Kelly was killed after 9:00.

Which is why Hutchinson did not bother to come forward with his story. His 2-3:00 sighting had no bearing in a murder which took place after 9:00 in the morning.

So, Hutchinson saw his old friend with a strange man on the morning of her death, and didn't think that his evidence might be of at least some use to the police? Oh, wait a minute, he said that he had previously told a policeman, so the argument doesn't actually add up.

Despite the speculative early reports in the press, her time of death had yet to be officially discussed as the inquest had not been held, so this was no reason, or excuse, for his not coming forward sooner.

[Wickerman]

Hi.
For the police to go against medical reports from their own police doctors. they must have had a pretty good case that they were dealing with a daylight murder,..

But they didn't go against the medical reports Richard. The police do not get to see any medical reports until the autopsy reports are written up. As the autopsy was conducted Saturday morning, and Dr Phillips c/w Macdonald searched room 13 again Saturday afternoon.
It is likely the medical report, which we know was extensive, would be written up on Sat evening/Sunday by Phillips in preparation for the inquest on Monday.
Phillips shares his findings with no-one until he presents them at the inquest. Which never happened.

Therefore, the police were proceeding blind for four days (Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon.) with no official time of death being provided.

[Wickerman]

Yes, and this is what I've been saying for years now

The predominant belief, certainly in the press (and apparently the police? - re Times quote), was that Kelly was killed after 9:00.

Which is why Hutchinson did not bother to come forward with his story. His 2-3:00 sighting had no bearing in a murder which took place after 9:00 in the morning.
The Times quote is quite consistent with what we read in the press over the weekend, prior to Hutchinson coming forward on Monday.
The majority of press accounts quote Maxwell (and some, M. Lewis) concerning Kelly being seen in the morning alive & well.

Only Dr Phillips and presumably Dr Bond believed otherwise, and it was not their place to discuss their beliefs with the investigators until after the autopsy & inquest.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
For the police to go against medical reports from their own police doctors. they must have had a pretty good case that they were dealing with a daylight murder,
Mrs Maxwell could have been mistaken , and spoke to Lizzie Albrook, but this is doubtful , as she mentioned that the victim , had recently broke up with her man, and surely would have realised any mistake when she saw Lizzie at the inquest and about the area days following her statement.
We also have reports that Kelly was in Ringers with other women during the early morning, and a man wanted to speak to her outside,and she apparently went back to her room with him..
This is all confusing .
I have never thought the slaying would have taken that long , look what he did to Eddowes in just a short time.?
Regards Richard.

[GUT]

They must have believed Lewis, Maxwell and I’m pretty sure one more witness to conclude she was killed in daylight.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Mary Kelly apparently had a black velvet jacket, maybe her clothes were predominantly black , hence the nickname Black Mary?.
This item was not in her room .but velvet material was in the grate,and apparently burnt.
The Times November 12th quoted .
The Police formed an opinion,that the murder was committed in daylight, and a jacket and bonnet, had been burnt because they were bloodstained.
This is a very strange belief, by the investigative officers.
Why would the killer burn bloodstained garments, and how did those items get bloodstained,were they on the bed, or on Mary when attacked.?
Answers on a postcard please as for the motive of the killer to pacifically attempt to get rid of those two items?.
Regards Richard.

[Joshua Rogan]

We're getting bogged down in the weeds here,

Fair enough, women's fashion was never my strong point anyway

at the end of the day (as my ol' ma used to say) if we believe M. Lewis & Maxwell we have to also believe that Kelly was seen alive in Dorset St. around 9:00 am, and discovered mutilated at 10:45.

Quite. Incidentally, even if Maurice Lewis did indeed somehow confuse Kelly and Maxwell, doesn't that still corroborate Maxwell's sighting?

And at a time when the court was more alive than dead, people potentially coming and going.

There's a quote from a local in the Daily News that suggests it wasn't beyond belief;
"Is it not astounding that he could have gone in and out without being observed by somebody on the court?" was a question put to an intelligent labouring man, a denizen of the neighbourhood. "Not a bit," was the reply, "and you would understand it if you knew the place and the kind of people. Men go in and out there, and nobody thinks anything about them or takes notice of 'em. It's everybody for themselves there."

I'm not inclined to believe that is likely, and I'm a little surprised that Macdonald didn't dismiss Maxwell's story when he had Dr. Phillips with his medical evidence available.
Macdonald may have known, and Dr. Phillips must have known that Dr Bond had written to Anderson that in his opinion the murder took place between 1-2:00. Give or take an hour we are nowhere near the 9:00+ time that Maxwells sighting dictates.

It is a bit of a mystery...I guess that's why we're still discussing it 130 years after the fact.
I think it's only fair Maxwell's evidence was heard, but it doesn't seem to have been entirely accepted. Perhaps the coroner wasn't completely comfortable with Phillips' TOD estimate? Was Bond's report completed by the time of the inquest?

[Wickerman]

We're getting bogged down in the weeds here, at the end of the day (as my ol' ma used to say) if we believe M. Lewis & Maxwell we have to also believe that Kelly was seen alive in Dorset St. around 9:00 am, and discovered mutilated at 10:45.
And at a time when the court was more alive than dead, people potentially coming and going.

I'm not inclined to believe that is likely, and I'm a little surprised that Macdonald didn't dismiss Maxwell's story when he had Dr. Phillips with his medical evidence available.
Macdonald may have known, and Dr. Phillips must have known that Dr Bond had written to Anderson that in his opinion the murder took place between 1-2:00. Give or take an hour we are nowhere near the 9:00+ time that Maxwells sighting dictates.

[Joshua Rogan]

Kelly may have had both a shawl & a pelerine, though I am not advocating to her a sizable wardrobe. She did bring a large chest of fancy clothing from the West End when she finally settled in the East End.

Fair enough. But as I said earlier, Cox clearly describes the same garment as both a pelerine and a red knitted crossover. I don't think a pelerine proper would have been knitted, so suggest she was using the term loosely. Or the court reporter was.

I know Kelly went to get her fancy clothes back, but is there any evidence that she succeeded?