What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon.
I would suggest that after the body was discovered, Bond would have offered a educated guess to the police judged on Rigor Mortis findings, , which would have contradicted Mrs Maxwell's sighting, which is why Abberline tried hard to have her doubt her sighting. Yet they still believed it happened in daylight ?
He stated he could not 'break the woman.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

So, Hutchinson saw his old friend with a strange man on the morning of her death, and didn't think that his evidence might be of at least some use to the police? Oh, wait a minute, he said that he had previously told a policeman, so the argument doesn't actually add up.

Despite the speculative early reports in the press, her time of death had yet to be officially discussed as the inquest had not been held, so this was no reason, or excuse, for his not coming forward sooner.

Swanson wasn't sure if Broadshouldered man was necessarily involved in Strides death, and that was only 15 minutes before her murder.

6-7 hours Gareth, quit making excuses. It doesn't factor in no matter what your argument is.

What was Nichols doing, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, 6-7 hours before their deaths. Who were they with, how many suspects did the police line up for being with them 6-7 hours ahead?

[Abby Normal]

So, Hutchinson saw his old friend with a strange man on the morning of her death, and didn't think that his evidence might be of at least some use to the police? Oh, wait a minute, he said that he had previously told a policeman, so the argument doesn't actually add up.

Despite the speculative early reports in the press, her time of death had yet to be officially discussed as the inquest had not been held, so this was no reason, or excuse, for his not coming forward sooner.

Exactly sam
No one knew when she was murdered and of course it hutch’s apparent sighting would be relevant.

You think fish is twisted with his lech arguments. You ain’t seen nuthin yet.wait till wicky gets going with his hutch zaniness.lol

[Simon Wood]

It's possible that Mrs. Maxwell saw Kelly on the Friday morning.

Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time that the door was broken open.

And so, if as reported by The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it puts the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon.
I would suggest that after the body was discovered, Bond would have offered a educated guess to the police judged on Rigor Mortis findings, , which would have contradicted Mrs Maxwell's sighting, which is why Abberline tried hard to have her doubt her sighting. Yet they still believed it happened in daylight ?
He stated he could not 'break the woman.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard.

Well, Rigor mortis doesn't factor in, and Phillips didn't mention that. Due to her being cut up the body will cool rapidly & algor mortis plus livor mortis are of no use either. Phillips was reported to have said (or overheard?) that the body must have been dead some 5-6 hours, when he arrived about 11:00. Though he admitted the body would cool more rapidly when dissected. Which seems to imply he was trying not to dismiss a later time of death.
As dawn was around 6:30 am, he is not ruling out a daylight murder.

Some speculations were offered based on how congealed the blood on the floor was. Another inexact method.
The fact remains the police had no reliable time of death to work with. All they knew from statements given was she was last seen around midnight, a cry of murder around 3:30-4:00, then seen again around 8:30-9:00 am.

The body as it lay in Millers court offered no clue as to a time of death.

[Wickerman]

It's possible that Mrs. Maxwell saw Kelly on the Friday morning.

Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time that the door was broken open.

And so, if as reported by The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it puts the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

Regards,

Simon

The Times article you quote does not reference "at the time of his examination" as you suggest. It says from the time he arrived.

"....the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours."

I also doubt very much that Phillips said to that to a reporter, he seemed to have a low view of the press. Though he could have suggested that to a police official, or Dr Bond, and was overheard by someone else.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Who served MJK in the Ringers, who else was there, who was the man she was seen talking to fifteen minutes later. Who else saw Maxwell and MJK talking Mary leaves her room early in the morning, goes to The ringers, solicits for a client in the immediate vicinity [ she couldn't have gone too far ], whilst badly hungover, in the cold and rain. Comes back with said client, has to open the door through the window so anyone within the court can see this. Client murders Mary, then as to leave by the door. Three times the door opened and shut yet nobody saw this happening, and Maurice Lewis said the court was busy by ten. Also we have the negative evidence of Catherine Pickett who knocked on Mary's door at seven thirty to find no reply. Of course Mary could have been out and about at that time, if not dead, but Catherine Pickett never saw her, and neither did John Mcarthy whose shop Mary would have to pass to leave the court. If he did see her, wouldn't he have gone out, or sent Bowyer out to ask for the rent arrears instead of having to bang on her door later?

[Darryl Kenyon]

That was my conjecture some time back Richard. Cox is the only witness who said it was raining, and raining hard. Neither Lewis, Kennedy, Bowyer, or Hutchinson say it was raining.
Thats negative evidence of course but it is worth pointing out.
However, Cox does mention the singing.....so she is redeemed I guess.

Weather for 8 November - Dull cold day; rain at night
Weather for 9 Nov - Wet till 11A.M, then overcast

[Simon Wood]

The Standard, 10th November 1888—

“Yesterday morning . . . Kelly and other women again met in the Britannia. They had been drinking for some time when one of the party was called to the door, and, on returning, whispered to Kelly, who at once went out. Then the woman who had been the medium of communication between Kelly and the person at the door said to the others ‘She’s got a call.’ The women remained drinking, until they heard shouts of ‘Murder’ in the street, when they all rushed out. Several of them ran up M’Carthy’s Court, and looked through the window of Kelly’s room. What they saw is almost too revolting to describe. They saw plainly the disemboweled body of their companion, and those who had courage enough to enter the room saw that the head was almost severed from the body . . .”

Regards,

Simon

[richardnunweek]

Hi Simon.
All of this sounds hogwash.
If a man beckon Kelly over, then the go-between would have been a star witness,being able to describe the last person seen with the victim.
By the time the shout of murder echoed down Dorset street the police would have been there in the court, its highly unlikely that McCarthy and Bowyer would have advertised the fact en -route to the police station.
No members of the public would have had access to the court,especially some women who had been drinking in the local pub., and the door was locked so no entry would have been possible.
Regards Richard,

[Simon Wood]

Hi Richard,

It may sound like hogwash, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

I very much doubt the door to Room 13 was locked. It had to appear locked in order to preserve the scenario and timings that we've all come to cherish.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Swanson wasn't sure if Broadshouldered man was necessarily involved in Strides death, and that was only 15 minutes before her murder.

6-7 hours Gareth, quit making excuses.

I'm not making excuses.

Hutchinson saw a "stern" looking man picking up his friend on the morning of her death, witnessed him spending a considerable amount time in her room, and hours later - doesn't matter if it was 1, 3, 5 or 7 - she is horrifically and brutally killed.

Yet, because of some early, confusing press reports, Hutchinson decided to say bugger all about it to the police? Oops, I forgot again! he didn't keep it to himself, because he'd already told an unidentified copper previously, so he obviously thought his evidence was worth something to the police. Why not make a statement at that point?

Furthermore, when he was asked why he he didn't make his statement sooner, why say that he'd already told a policeman, when - if your suggestion is correct - he could simply and truthfully have said "because I thought from what I'd read in the papers that Mary was still alive in the morning"?

[Abby Normal]

Who served MJK in the Ringers, who else was there, who was the man she was seen talking to fifteen minutes later. Who else saw Maxwell and MJK talking Mary leaves her room early in the morning, goes to The ringers, solicits for a client in the immediate vicinity [ she couldn't have gone too far ], whilst badly hungover, in the cold and rain. Comes back with said client, has to open the door through the window so anyone within the court can see this. Client murders Mary, then as to leave by the door. Three times the door opened and shut yet nobody saw this happening, and Maurice Lewis said the court was busy by ten. Also we have the negative evidence of Catherine Pickett who knocked on Mary's door at seven thirty to find no reply. Of course Mary could have been out and about at that time, if not dead, but Catherine Pickett never saw her, and neither did John Mcarthy whose shop Mary would have to pass to leave the court. If he did see her, wouldn't he have gone out, or sent Bowyer out to ask for the rent arrears instead of having to bang on her door later?

Yup. And While it’s possible maxwell and Lewis saw Mary in the day light morning, I doubt it. Times way too tight. Plus would a woman so sick head back out to the bar again after having just done so and gotten sick? Let alone pick up a client for sex.i don’t see it.

[Wickerman]

Weather for 8 November - Dull cold day; rain at night
Weather for 9 Nov - Wet till 11A.M, then overcast

Didn't you forget to mention that the measurable amount of rain was "n/a".
So little it was not measurable.
Thats what we used to call drizzle, not "raining hard".

[Wickerman]

The Standard, 10th November 1888—

“Yesterday morning . . . Kelly and other women again met in the Britannia. They had been drinking for some time when one of the party was called to the door, and, on returning, whispered to Kelly, who at once went out. Then the woman who had been the medium of communication between Kelly and the person at the door said to the others ‘She’s got a call.’ The women remained drinking, until they heard shouts of ‘Murder’ in the street, when they all rushed out. Several of them ran up M’Carthy’s Court, and looked through the window of Kelly’s room. What they saw is almost too revolting to describe. They saw plainly the disemboweled body of their companion, and those who had courage enough to enter the room saw that the head was almost severed from the body . . .”

Regards,

Simon

Doesn't that same article identify this Mary Jane Kelly as living in a little room with her son, eight years old?

True?
The deceased having a son was circumstantial gossip at the time. More likely a different woman altogether than the Kelly who was murdered.