What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say?

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua, there is also Catherine Pickett? (was that her name?), across at No.12 who heard singing.

The term 'wrapper' was also used for an apron. PC Hutt used that term at the Eddowes inquest.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua, there is also Catherine Pickett? (was that her name?), across at No.12 who heard singing.

Good point, I'd forgotten she said she heard singing too - do you know when she claimed that, and what time? McCarthy said Mary was last heard at 1am which was the same time Cox gave, which is why I go with her as the source.
I think some papers gave ger name as Pickell. If it wasn't for her husband stopping her going down to complain about Mary's singing, we might have another description of Blotchy.

The term 'wrapper' was also used for an apron. PC Hutt used that term at the Eddowes inquest.

I know you think Hutt was referring to her apron, but I've always thought he was referring to the white hndkerchief she wore as a scarf, since he was loosening things around her neck at the time. I don't think an apron would need loosening. But that's an argument for another time.

[Wickerman]

Good point, I'd forgotten she said she heard singing too - do you know when she claimed that, and what time?

The time given was "about 12:30 am".

I know you think Hutt was referring to her apron, but I've always thought he was referring to the white hndkerchief she wore as a scarf, since he was loosening things around her neck at the time. I don't think an apron would need loosening. But that's an argument for another time.

In the US the term was used for a female servants frock, it looked like a night gown. Some manufacturers of aprons in the UK still use the term 'wrapper', or did when I last looked a couple of years ago.
Anyhow, not to get sidetracked....

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Jon. Some accounts do say that Mary was heard singing by several inhabitants of the court, so Mrs & Mrs P could well have been two of them.
And also Mrs Cox of course. In one report she says she stayed awake all night, until the man called for the rent (presumably Bowyer, before he got to no.13) but didn't hear anything after 1am. So that and the singing does seem to make it unlikely she mixed up the days.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
At 9.am Mrs Prater stated , ''She was wearing [ Kelly]' a Jacket, and Bonnet, and went on to say she herself does not own such things.
At 1145 Mrs Cox stated Kelly was wearing a Red Pelerine.
Vastly different clothing.
So who was accurate regarding sighting. ?
We know Mrs Harvey left Kelly a Bonnet on the Thursday evening,, so that gives credence to Praters account.
Maybe then Mrs Cox was mistaken about seeing Blotchy that evening, and it was the previous night, rather like Hutchinson has been accused of.
Remains of a charred bonnet , and Velvet were found burnt in the fire.
We know Kelly owned a black velvet jacket.
Police were of the opinion that both Jacket and Bonnet were burnt because they were bloodstained.
Never explained.
Regards Richard.

Maxwell reported her as wearing a black velvet bodice. Could this be the jacket mentioned by Prater? The bodice was apparently found in the room, in front of the fireplace, not in it.

"That the woman had had no struggle with her betrayer was shown by her position and the way in which her garments, including a velvet bodice, were arranged by the fireplace."

[Wickerman]

I don't think we should get too precise with the definition of pelerine, Jon, essentially it's a posh version of a shawl.

Hi Joshua.
I'm just a little concerned that we don't dismiss the difference between a shawl and a pelerine.


Pelerine originally referred to a woman’s narrow cape of fabric or fur, or fur trimming, with long pointed ends in front. During the 1840s, the pelerine became part of a dress, matching in fabric, covering the shoulders and coming to a point (or pair of points) at the front centre of the midriff. A dress could include the bodice and skirt, sleeves and pelerine, all separate pieces to put together. The pelerine would hide where the sleeves were tied to the bodice, and created a smooth, sloped shoulder-line. By the 1850s, the pelerine started to be crafted as part of the bodice, and this style continued into the 1860s. Capes continued to be made in this shape and size as well, and large capes and mantles would feature a pelerine of the same fabric and design. “An ermine pelerine had slipped off the right shoulder, displaying a white throat, round which was a string of pearls, and her brown hair was smoothly braided, entwining a bunch of lily of the valley.” The Ladies’ Garland, Philadelphia, 1839.

http://www.katetattersall.com/victorian-fashion-terms-n-z/

Kelly may have had both a shawl & a pelerine, though I am not advocating to her a sizable wardrobe. She did bring a large chest of fancy clothing from the West End when she finally settled in the East End.

[Joshua Rogan]

Kelly may have had both a shawl & a pelerine, though I am not advocating to her a sizable wardrobe. She did bring a large chest of fancy clothing from the West End when she finally settled in the East End.

Fair enough. But as I said earlier, Cox clearly describes the same garment as both a pelerine and a red knitted crossover. I don't think a pelerine proper would have been knitted, so suggest she was using the term loosely. Or the court reporter was.

I know Kelly went to get her fancy clothes back, but is there any evidence that she succeeded?

[Wickerman]

We're getting bogged down in the weeds here, at the end of the day (as my ol' ma used to say) if we believe M. Lewis & Maxwell we have to also believe that Kelly was seen alive in Dorset St. around 9:00 am, and discovered mutilated at 10:45.
And at a time when the court was more alive than dead, people potentially coming and going.

I'm not inclined to believe that is likely, and I'm a little surprised that Macdonald didn't dismiss Maxwell's story when he had Dr. Phillips with his medical evidence available.
Macdonald may have known, and Dr. Phillips must have known that Dr Bond had written to Anderson that in his opinion the murder took place between 1-2:00. Give or take an hour we are nowhere near the 9:00+ time that Maxwells sighting dictates.

[Joshua Rogan]

We're getting bogged down in the weeds here,

Fair enough, women's fashion was never my strong point anyway

at the end of the day (as my ol' ma used to say) if we believe M. Lewis & Maxwell we have to also believe that Kelly was seen alive in Dorset St. around 9:00 am, and discovered mutilated at 10:45.

Quite. Incidentally, even if Maurice Lewis did indeed somehow confuse Kelly and Maxwell, doesn't that still corroborate Maxwell's sighting?

And at a time when the court was more alive than dead, people potentially coming and going.

There's a quote from a local in the Daily News that suggests it wasn't beyond belief;
"Is it not astounding that he could have gone in and out without being observed by somebody on the court?" was a question put to an intelligent labouring man, a denizen of the neighbourhood. "Not a bit," was the reply, "and you would understand it if you knew the place and the kind of people. Men go in and out there, and nobody thinks anything about them or takes notice of 'em. It's everybody for themselves there."

I'm not inclined to believe that is likely, and I'm a little surprised that Macdonald didn't dismiss Maxwell's story when he had Dr. Phillips with his medical evidence available.
Macdonald may have known, and Dr. Phillips must have known that Dr Bond had written to Anderson that in his opinion the murder took place between 1-2:00. Give or take an hour we are nowhere near the 9:00+ time that Maxwells sighting dictates.

It is a bit of a mystery...I guess that's why we're still discussing it 130 years after the fact.
I think it's only fair Maxwell's evidence was heard, but it doesn't seem to have been entirely accepted. Perhaps the coroner wasn't completely comfortable with Phillips' TOD estimate? Was Bond's report completed by the time of the inquest?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Mary Kelly apparently had a black velvet jacket, maybe her clothes were predominantly black , hence the nickname Black Mary?.
This item was not in her room .but velvet material was in the grate,and apparently burnt.
The Times November 12th quoted .
The Police formed an opinion,that the murder was committed in daylight, and a jacket and bonnet, had been burnt because they were bloodstained.
This is a very strange belief, by the investigative officers.
Why would the killer burn bloodstained garments, and how did those items get bloodstained,were they on the bed, or on Mary when attacked.?
Answers on a postcard please as for the motive of the killer to pacifically attempt to get rid of those two items?.
Regards Richard.

[GUT]

They must have believed Lewis, Maxwell and I’m pretty sure one more witness to conclude she was killed in daylight.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
For the police to go against medical reports from their own police doctors. they must have had a pretty good case that they were dealing with a daylight murder,
Mrs Maxwell could have been mistaken , and spoke to Lizzie Albrook, but this is doubtful , as she mentioned that the victim , had recently broke up with her man, and surely would have realised any mistake when she saw Lizzie at the inquest and about the area days following her statement.
We also have reports that Kelly was in Ringers with other women during the early morning, and a man wanted to speak to her outside,and she apparently went back to her room with him..
This is all confusing .
I have never thought the slaying would have taken that long , look what he did to Eddowes in just a short time.?
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Yes, and this is what I've been saying for years now

The predominant belief, certainly in the press (and apparently the police? - re Times quote), was that Kelly was killed after 9:00.

Which is why Hutchinson did not bother to come forward with his story. His 2-3:00 sighting had no bearing in a murder which took place after 9:00 in the morning.
The Times quote is quite consistent with what we read in the press over the weekend, prior to Hutchinson coming forward on Monday.
The majority of press accounts quote Maxwell (and some, M. Lewis) concerning Kelly being seen in the morning alive & well.

Only Dr Phillips and presumably Dr Bond believed otherwise, and it was not their place to discuss their beliefs with the investigators until after the autopsy & inquest.

[Wickerman]

Hi.
For the police to go against medical reports from their own police doctors. they must have had a pretty good case that they were dealing with a daylight murder,..

But they didn't go against the medical reports Richard. The police do not get to see any medical reports until the autopsy reports are written up. As the autopsy was conducted Saturday morning, and Dr Phillips c/w Macdonald searched room 13 again Saturday afternoon.
It is likely the medical report, which we know was extensive, would be written up on Sat evening/Sunday by Phillips in preparation for the inquest on Monday.
Phillips shares his findings with no-one until he presents them at the inquest. Which never happened.

Therefore, the police were proceeding blind for four days (Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon.) with no official time of death being provided.

[Sam Flynn]

The predominant belief, certainly in the press (and apparently the police? - re Times quote), was that Kelly was killed after 9:00.

Which is why Hutchinson did not bother to come forward with his story. His 2-3:00 sighting had no bearing in a murder which took place after 9:00 in the morning.

So, Hutchinson saw his old friend with a strange man on the morning of her death, and didn't think that his evidence might be of at least some use to the police? Oh, wait a minute, he said that he had previously told a policeman, so the argument doesn't actually add up.

Despite the speculative early reports in the press, her time of death had yet to be officially discussed as the inquest had not been held, so this was no reason, or excuse, for his not coming forward sooner.