12:45 am

[Michael W Richards]

Have you never heard of a squabble escalating to physical violence or even death? .

Supported by Phillips..."[Coroner] Would the injury take long to inflict? - [Phillips] Only a few seconds - it might be done in two seconds.

An encounter that went bad and ended with a single knife cut. That's all this is.

[Joshua Rogan]

Blackwell estimated the cut time between 12:46-56

In his press interview from the 1st he says "She could not have been dead more than twenty minutes, the body being perfectly warm".
At the inquest he hedged his bets and stretched it a little.
"I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, at the most half an hour. "

[Abby Normal]

Supported by Phillips..."[Coroner] Would the injury take long to inflict? - [Phillips] Only a few seconds - it might be done in two seconds.

An encounter that went bad and ended with a single knife cut. That's all this is.

a doctor saying that a cut throat only takes a few seconds is only that-it takes a few seconds to cut a throat. It has no relevance what went on before or after and the nature of the encounter(stranger or domestic or acquaintance).

how you can take that statement to mean anything else is again a flight of fancy.

[c.d.]

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

Hello Sam,

But think about giving someone the finger. You look directly at them and accompany the gesture with a curse word. Schwartz seemed to be saying that whatever the word was it was aimed at him.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Unfortunately that "simple truth" is not supported by the evidence, Abby. Stride was still clenching the cachous when she was killed, that would suggest she had let her guard down and was taken by surprise. Going into the yard with the man assaulting her doesn't really fit that scenario.

Nor does the B.S. man killing her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man fit the scenario.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Have you never heard of a squabble escalating to physical violence or even death? Nothing "convoluted" about that. On the contrary, it's a not-uncommon linear progression."

You are right, Sam it is not at all uncommon but it is usually accompanied by loud voices and shouting as well as the woman being slapped about. And if the weapon is a knife you would expect multiple stab wounds on the body demonstrating the rage of the killer. None of these things are present however in the Stride killing.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Re Fanny Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Notice the "NEARLY THE WHOLE TIME" in her statement. She had a sick husband and I believe it was five children to deal with. So clearly she was not at her door THE WHOLE TIME.

c.d.

[c.d.]

because the ripper was human and not a robot. lost his temper it seems, probably because she would not go gently into that secluded area. and yes fled once he realized he had been seen and or realized the situation was too hot.

Hello Abby,

Been seen doing what? According to Schwartz it was simply pushing a woman to the ground. So why go on to kill her after being seen?

c.d.

[Joshua Rogan]

Schwartz seemed to be saying that whatever the word was it was aimed at him.

Sorry c.d. I don't think Schwartz believed the shout was directed toward him.
A Home office letter enquiring about the progress of the investigation contains this about his statement;

"A statement has been made by a man named Schwartz to the effect that he had heard a person who was pulling about a woman identified as Elizabeth Stride 15 minutes before the murder off Berner Street took place, call out "Lipski" to an individual who was on the opposite side of the road. It does not appear whether the man used the word "Lipski" as a mere ejaculation meaning in mockery I am going to "Lipski" the woman, or whether he was calling to a man across the road by his proper name."

A report by Abberline seems to be a reply to this and says;

"I beg to report that since a Jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the Jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.
I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say."

[Tom_Wescott]

SMH at Sam Flynn and Mike Richards.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Re Fanny Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Notice the "NEARLY THE WHOLE TIME" in her statement. She had a sick husband and I believe it was five children to deal with. So clearly she was not at her door THE WHOLE TIME.

c.d.

There are two different versions of Mortimer's account. In one version she says she went outside shortly after hearing the "heavy stamp" of a policeman pass by-I believe this would have been around 12:42-12:43, meaning she arrived at her doorstep at about 12:45. She then stood at her door for no more than 10 minutes before returning inside. About 4 minutes later she heard Louis' pony and cart.

[Jon Guy]

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

Hi Gareth

It was most certainly Lipski that was shouted by BS Man, as it was at that point that BS Man realised Schwartz, a Jewish looking guy, was watching him.

[Jon Guy]

Been seen doing what? According to Schwartz it was simply pushing a woman to the ground. So why go on to kill her after being seen?

Hi CD

Church Pasage Man still went on to kill Eddowes after been seen by 3 men, and Annie Chapman`s killer still went on to kill Chapman despite Mrs Long witnessing him approaching a victim.

[Michael W Richards]

This is a most unfortunate post for it contains no merit. One: Mortimer wasn't at her door for the whole period. Two: has I've explained to you Spooner says he arrived at the scene 5 minutes before PC Lamb, who arrived 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell, who arrived at 1:16. This means PC Lamb arrived at around 1:05, and Spooned at about 1:00am. This has already been explained to you. Forget Spooner's estimate, it was clearly wrong, he didn't consult a watch/clock but relied on the pub closing times! Three: PC Smith must have been wrong with his time estimate. Not could have been; must have been. Please read and digest post 105: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9642&page=11

In an effort to be the one who is correct I can see why you disregard statements made.

[Michael W Richards]

In his press interview from the 1st he says "She could not have been dead more than twenty minutes, the body being perfectly warm".
At the inquest he hedged his bets and stretched it a little.
"I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, at the most half an hour. "

Doesn't that equate to 12:46-12:50 Josh?