12:45 am

[Abby Normal]

To cd...this eternal argument you have with me making suggestions about Israel needs to end, because the burden of proof that his story was meaningful rest on your shoulders, not mine. He didn't appear at the Inquest, there is no record history was even submitted in written form, there is no record that his story was being withheld or that he was sequestered...as is clearly pointed out during the questioning of Lawende.

Sorry, Michael but the burden of proof clearly rests on you since you are the one making the assertion that he lied. That is the way it works.

You demand evidence for any position you do not agree with yet you have no problem with asserting a club conspiracy with no evidence to support it. His failure to appear at the inquest is proof of nothing because WE DON"T KNOW why he did not appear. Just because the club might have had a reason to conspire does not necessarily mean that they did.

But this constant argument is indeed tiring. So I will make a deal with you. Feel free to assert that Schwartz lied and was part of a conspiracy but please don't tack on phrases like "it is almost certain that he lied." Then I won't have to reply. Deal?

c.d.

Exactly. There really is no reason to believe he lied. Except of course you have a pre conceived theory.

First of all, the police had to dig him out, he didn't come forward on his own.

Secondly, this is a foreigner in a strange land, new to the country, can't even speak the language, and he's going to lie to police in a major murder case? Putting himself and his family's wellbeing in jepordy? Don't think so.

[c.d.]

"Secondly, this is a foreigner in a strange land, new to the country, can't even speak the language, and he's going to lie to police in a major murder case? Putting himself and his family's wellbeing in jepordy? Don't think so."

Exactly. And he never said that he saw Stride being killed only that he saw a woman being pushed.

And again, if the evidence that he lied is so clear why didn't the police go after the club on those grounds? Get that story in the papers so that public opinion turns against them and you have grounds for shutting them down.

c.d.

[Harry D]

First of all, the police had to dig him out, he didn't come forward on his own.

Did they?

Secondly, this is a foreigner in a strange land, new to the country, can't even speak the language, and he's going to lie to police in a major murder case? Putting himself and his family's wellbeing in jepordy? Don't think so.

Oh, he was trying to protect his "family", alright!

Schwartz is the only person who potentially witnessed a Ripper attack in progress. He identified the victim as Stride but his story is uncorroborated by anyone else, in fact there are witnesses who should've heard such an incident and didn't. The scene Schwartz describes also conflicts with the evidence (BS was dragging Stride away from the club, but she was found inside the gates, and she was still clutching her cachous when she was killed). Looks like Schwartz was literally and metaphorically trying to distance Stride's killer from the club.

[Joshua Rogan]

The fact that its well recorded that Lipski was being used as a slur towards Jews at that time, it would seem Swanson needed to get out more.

Swanson may have been somewhat deskbound, but his inference is perfectly understandable if the attacker was calling out a warning to a companion, rather than an insult to Schwartz. Which is what his report implies.

Brown saw the young couple seen by Fanny. They were the ONLY people seen on that street by non-club witnesses after 12:35.

I believe the only person Fanny actually said she saw on the street was the man with a black bag, Leon Goldstein, and I suspect that she got the info about the couple from the couple themselves after they came to the yard. Her statement (in the Evening News 1st Oct) of "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound." sounds very much like this from the same issue; "When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".
I do think it's possible that this is the same couple seen by Brown, although he was "almost certain" that the woman was Stride. That's almost as certain as you seem that he was wrong.

And all the club staff witnesses....Eagle, Lave, Wess, Louis...have nothing but their own stories to use for corroboration. Louis could easily have arrived around 12:45, which would be corroborated by 3 plus witnesses, and then sent for help 15 minutes later, which would make the rest of the authority stories fit.

Almost none of the stories have direct corroboration, club-related or not. Nobody saw Brown, or Marshall, and nobody at all mentions seeing Fanny. Does this mean they were covering something up?
The really strange thing is that your theory of an over-enthusiastic hired bouncer merdering Stride doesn't even demand a conspiracy. Far more likely that such a killer would simply slope off into the night and leave the body to be found by the next person to enter the yard.

The thing most everyone forgets is that Louis says he left with Issac[s] after 1am, Isaac K says he was SENT..alone..by Louis before 1am. Issac says this without equivocation.

Why isn't this sending of Issacs alone mentioned by anyone but himself?

Perhaps because Isaacs doesn't actually say he was sent out alone?

[Michael W Richards]

To cd...this eternal argument you have with me making suggestions about Israel needs to end, because the burden of proof that his story was meaningful rest on your shoulders, not mine. He didn't appear at the Inquest, there is no record history was even submitted in written form, there is no record that his story was being withheld or that he was sequestered...as is clearly pointed out during the questioning of Lawende.

Sorry, Michael but the burden of proof clearly rests on you since you are the one making the assertion that he lied. That is the way it works.

You demand evidence for any position you do not agree with yet you have no problem with asserting a club conspiracy with no evidence to support it. His failure to appear at the inquest is proof of nothing because WE DON"T KNOW why he did not appear. Just because the club might have had a reason to conspire does not necessarily mean that they did.

But this constant argument is indeed tiring. So I will make a deal with you. Feel free to assert that Schwartz lied and was part of a conspiracy but please don't tack on phrases like "it is almost certain that he lied." Then I won't have to reply. Deal?

c.d.

It would seem that my objections to using Israels statement as a basis for theorizing are slightly misunderstood...yes, I believe he lied, but the real point I am trying to make here is that his story cannot be considered as relevant to this investigation due to the fact that the investigative authorities did not include it with the Inquest data, in any form. therefore, they decided it was not germane to the issue of how she died.

When you have a statement that a victim is seen assaulted by someone mere minutes before the estimated time of death, it is inconceivable, that if believed, it would not be absolutely relevant to the question the Inquest sought to answer and included in the presented data. It wasn't.

Why they didn't use him I speculate about....logically I might add...that they didn't use him is historical fact.

[John G]

Frankly I don't see how you can deny a logical scenario John, but lets address your response. For one.....Lave and Eagle claimed to be about in the exact same place at the same time by their stories...yet neither man saw each other. No-one saw Eagle return, so we have only his word on the time. 3 Club members did in fact contradict Eagle, Lave and Diemshitz's times with the stories they told to reporters and police that night.

No-one came in via the gates between 12:50 and 1am, as per Fanny and her vigil during that time. She also neither saw or heard Eagle, Louis, Israel, BSman or Pipeman, only the young couple also seen by Brown. She said the streets were "deserted".

IF the club was thought to have been the source of the killer, the club would have closed..Louis and Mrs D would be out of work, Eagle would have no club to speak at the following Saturday, and likely the Diemshitz's, Wess and the Arbeter Fraint would have had to find other quarters. With Israels statement, it essentially ensures that wouldn't happen, and it casts suspicion off the clubs grounds out onto the street to a likely gentile killer. Extremely fortunate for the club that statement.

If you equate the Club with a modern anarchists club...like an outlaw bikers club for example, if a murder occurred on their property under the same climate as the Stride murder did...during a period of unsolved local murders...then the bikers would do what they needed to do cast suspicion off their attending members, or risk arrest and the clubs closure.

People lie all the time to protect themselves, why does this seem so incredible to so many here?

Eagle and Lave only estimated the times and, in any event, gave different times for leaving the club.

Goldstein passed Berner Street shortly before 1:00am and a few minutes later Mrs Mortimer heard Louis D's pony and cart therefore, by implication, Louis must have arrived at around 1:00am, just as he said he did.

At least one of the witnesses who apparently contradicted Eagle could speak virtually no English, therefore his events is questionable. Moreover, there is no evidence that any of the witnesses who apparently contradicted Eagle and Louis at any point consulted a watch.

And what of Edward Spooner? He stated that PC Lamb arrived about 5 minutes after himself. Now as PC Lamb said that Dr Blackwell arrived 10-12 minutes after his arrival that means Lamb arrived at about 1:05 and Spooner 1:00am, further confirming Louis' evidence.

[c.d.]

"The scene Schwartz describes also conflicts with the evidence (BS was dragging Stride away from the club, but she was found inside the gates, and she was still clutching her cachous when she was killed). Looks like Schwartz was literally and metaphorically trying to distance Stride's killer from the club."

Hello Harry,

You are assuming that B.S. man was Stride's killer but Schwartz only witnessed a woman being pushed. His story does conflict with the B.S. man as her killer but to me it seems quite consistent with just a little street harassment of a woman by herself late at night just after the pubs closed.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

The scene Schwartz describes also conflicts with the evidence (BS was dragging Stride away from the club, but she was found inside the gates,

Hi Harry

Which bit of Schwartz`s account describes Stride been dragged away from the club ?

[Harry D]

Hi Harry

Which bit of Schwartz`s account describes Stride been dragged away from the club ?

Schwartz's statement reads that the man was trying to pull the victim into the street.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

You are assuming that B.S. man was Stride's killer but Schwartz only witnessed a woman being pushed. His story does conflict with the B.S. man as her killer but to me it seems quite consistent with just a little street harassment of a woman by herself late at night just after the pubs closed.

c.d.

Schwartz allegedly witnessed a woman (who he identified as the murder victim) being manhandled and thrown to the floor. This is minutes before Stride is found dead in the yard. Of course, no one actually backed this up. Even though it happened outside a busy social club, and there was at least one other witness who never came forward. So yes, the natural inference is that "BS Man" was the killer, otherwise it's a remarkable coincidence that another woman matching Stride's description was assaulted minutes before Stride was killed, or that another assailant targeted Stride after BS left the scene.

I have a feeling Schwartz was the one full of BS, however.

[John G]

Schwartz allegedly witnessed a woman (who he identified as the murder victim) being manhandled and thrown to the floor. This is minutes before Stride is found dead in the yard. Of course, no one actually backed this up. Even though it happened outside a busy social club, and there was at least one other witness who never came forward. So yes, the natural inference is that "BS Man" was the killer, otherwise it's a remarkable coincidence that another woman matching Stride's description was assaulted minutes before Stride was killed, or that another assailant targeted Stride after BS left the scene.

I have a feeling Schwartz was the one full of BS, however.

I tend to agree. A major issue for me, in respect of this scenario, is why would Stride remain pretty much rooted to the spot, i.e. outside the club, after just being assaulted? Wouldn't her instinct be to move on, i.e. in case BS man came back?

However, one possibility is that she was waiting for somebody, most probably a club member although, of course, such a person never came forward for elimination purposes.

Incidentally, do we know who the Hungarian interpreter was when he went to the police station? Was it a club member?

[Jon Guy]

Schwartz's statement reads that the man was trying to pull the victim into the street.

Yes, he was trying to, and it doesn`t look like he succeeded.

[Sam Flynn]

Schwartz's statement reads that the man was trying to pull the victim into the street.

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi John:

Eagle and Lave only estimated the times and, in any event, gave different times for leaving the club.

Eagle said he entered the passageway to go to the side door at 12:40, Lave says at around 12:30 he stood at the gates for about 10 minutes. Neither man saw each other, nor did they see anyone else. According to the statements, of course.

Goldstein passed Berner Street shortly before 1:00am and a few minutes later Mrs Mortimer heard Louis D's pony and cart therefore, by implication, Louis must have arrived at around 1:00am, just as he said he did.

Fanny Mortimer stated that from 12:50 until 1am she stood at her doorway to the street, she saw only Goldstein at 12:55-56. that in and of itself suggests that Louis could not have been on his cart and horse entering the passageway at "precisely" 1.

At least one of the witnesses who apparently contradicted Eagle could speak virtually no English, therefore his events is questionable. Moreover, there is no evidence that any of the witnesses who apparently contradicted Eagle and Louis at any point consulted a watch.

We know people spoke many languages there, yet they managed to take statements didn't they? Also, Schwartz spoke little English, so using your logic aren't his remarks subject to the same "questionable" categorizing?

And what of Edward Spooner? He stated that PC Lamb arrived about 5 minutes after himself. Now as PC Lamb said that Dr Blackwell arrived 10-12 minutes after his arrival that means Lamb arrived at about 1:05 and Spooner 1:00am, further confirming Louis' evidence

Spooner stated that he arrived at the entrance to Dutfields Yard at around "25 minutes to 1am". This was assumed an error on his part. So he errs on the time then, but nails the time he was standing there and how long it was before a pc arrived?

Issac Kozebrodski stated that he arrived back at the club around 12:30 and "about 10 minutes later" heard that Louis summoned him to the passageway. He also said that Louis sent him out to look for help "alone". He then says he saw Eagle returning to the passageway around 1 as he returned. Funny that no one but Issac remembered that when talking to the Police. And funny how that account of events seems to corroborate the claims of other witnesses who claimed to be by the body at around 12:45.

We have statements from witness who really have nothing to gain or protect...Fanny, PC Smith, Heschberg, Kozebrodksi, Spooner...and then we have witnesses who need to protect their incomes and reputations....Louis, Morris,....and we have witnesses who by their statements verify the statements of the former group. For instance, Fanny and James Brown seeing the young couple. Fanny seeing Goldstein.

Funny that the witnesses who had something to protect were aided immeasurably by a later statement that places the woman off property, being assaulted just before her murder. A Jewish immigrant who just happens to be passing by a club for Jewish immigrants at 12:45, shortly after a large meeting.

Funny that no-one corroborates the stories of Louis, Morris, Lave and Schwartz..no one else sees what they saw, no one sees Eagle or Louis arrive, no one sees Israel or anyone in his story,...we have only their stories to go by. 2 men whose reputation and livelihoods are at risk, and one who by virtue of his story, is a savior for the club.

.

For me, the coherent people who have no stake in any outcome of an investigation are far better truth barometers than ones that risk losing everything based upon a resulting perception by investigators.

[Abby Normal]

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

ah I see. she wouldn't go home with him so he killed her. of course.

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled.

guess that's not convoluted enough.