12:45 am

[Michael W Richards]

Is "Kalish" her birthplace? If so, that's probably Kalisz (the town and/or district) in Poland, the germanicised form of which is "Kalisch", where many of the Kosminski clan originated.

Interesting footnote Sam.

[Joshua Rogan]

Good spot Paddy!
Mila was described as "the servant at the club", so it certainly seems plausible that they were one and the same.

[Sam Flynn]

Milly Korwitz 23 General Servant Kalish (Could me Mila?)

Is "Kalish" her birthplace? If so, that's probably Kalisz (the town and/or district) in Poland, the germanicised form of which is "Kalisch", where many of the Kosminski clan originated.

[Paddy]

Living in one of the yard houses

Milly Korwitz 23 General Servant Kalish (Could me Mila?)

Pat...

[Joshua Rogan]

I believe only Mrs Diemshitz and one other unnamed charwoman

The un-surnamed Mila.

[Michael W Richards]

From what I read "cleaning among the Jews" meant doing chores for Jewish families who observed the sabbath. So it would give some work, but only once a week, in places like the Rothschild housing complex, or Wentworth Model Housing.

I believe that that Saturday signaled the beginning of the high holidays that year, perhaps the club was planning a dinner to celebrate that and needed the club to be spruced up. We also know that she cleaned for the landlady that afternoon. So she was, as she claimed, actively cleaning for money leading up to that night.

I believe only Mrs Diemshitz and one other unnamed charwoman were at the club at the time of the murder, maybe they added another charwoman due to the large crowd expected...it was originally scheduled to have William Morris as the speaker and that caused some stir locally...and they also may have added security because of that. Maybe a hired goon got rejected and as Liz insulted him and tried to walk out the gates,

The manner in which she was killed would support that kind of altercation, so would the other evidence. A 2 second loss of self control.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I believe Robert that there are extenuating circumstances here that very well could solve an important question, why was she there. Its not popular, but I believe its at least possible that Liz was there to clean up after the meeting. I think it may have been a gig for her.

She says she has been gainfully employed the past months cleaning "among the Jews", and here we have a Jewish Socialist club in need of cleaning. I don't see it as farfetched.

From what I read "cleaning among the Jews" meant doing chores for Jewish families who observed the sabbath. So it would give some work, but only once a week, in places like the Rothschild housing complex, or Wentworth Model Housing.

[Joshua Rogan]

I work on the assumption that everyone thinks my posts are a joke ;-)

I shall bear that in mind for future posts.

We can only speculate, and to be honest, I don`t think we`re even 100% on where Mrs Long was living at the time, as her address differs in the different sources.

Quite....I did start a thread some time ago hoping to establish exactly where she lived, but I don't think it led to anything definite.

True, perhaps the Brewery clock was not on time.
It only takes it to be 10 mins out ....

So many variables to consider....
You'd think, with the licensing laws in place, a brewery would have wanted to be spot on with the time to avoid any chance of prosecution....although that would probably apply more to the pubs themselves rather than the supplier.

[Jon Guy]

I thought you might have been, JG! Alas, it's not easy to tell someone's exact meaning from their written words.

I work on the assumption that everyone thinks my posts are a joke ;-)

True enough. But without knowing her walking speed, route, itinerary or even starting point, we can't know for sure. Frustratingly.

We can only speculate, and to be honest, I don`t think we`re even 100% on where Mrs Long was living at the time, as her address differs in the different sources.

She certainly seemed definite.
"[Coroner] You are certain about the time? - Quite."

True, perhaps the Brewery clock was not on time.
It only takes it to be 10 mins out ....

[Joshua Rogan]

I was joking about, Romford, JR.

I thought you might have been, JG! Alas, it's not easy to tell someone's exact meaning from their written words.

My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

True enough. But without knowing her walking speed, route, itinerary or even starting point, we can't know for sure. Frustratingly.

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.

She certainly seemed definite.
"[Coroner] You are certain about the time? - Quite."

[Abby Normal]

I was joking about, Romford, JR.
My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.

that's what ive often thought-she heard the 5:15 chime, or if not just misremembered. and I agree-shes one of the best witnesses, but as all things ripper- not a great witness in general.

[Jon Guy]

Romford? I thought she was on her way to Spitalfields Market. She said she reached it "a few minutes after half past five", which chimes with hearing the brewery clock sounding the half-hour as she turned into Hanbury street.
Even if she left home just after five, there's no guarantee she didn't stop off somewhere on the way for an errand, a coffee and/or a natter. Sadly.

I was joking about, Romford, JR.
My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.

[Joshua Rogan]

They are not my long held beliefs, Michael.
But anyway, how about Mrs Long was mistaken ?

Evans and Rumbelow argue that if Mrs Long left her house just after 5am, as she said, she would have been by 29 Hanbury Street at 5.15.
By 5.30am she would have been well on her way to Romford.

Romford? I thought she was on her way to Spitalfields Market. She said she reached it "a few minutes after half past five", which chimes with hearing the brewery clock sounding the half-hour as she turned into Hanbury street.
Even if she left home just after five, there's no guarantee she didn't stop off somewhere on the way for an errand, a coffee and/or a natter. Sadly.

[Jon Guy]

I appreciate that long held beliefs are hard to abandon, but again, for the umpteenth time, IF Cadosche was lying, then maybe Mrs Long saw Annie. If not, she didn't. Any evidence he was lying?

They are not my long held beliefs, Michael.
But anyway, how about Mrs Long was mistaken ?

Evans and Rumbelow argue that if Mrs Long left her house just after 5am, as she said, she would have been by 29 Hanbury Street at 5.15.
By 5.30am she would have been well on her way to Romford.

[Abby Normal]

True story: I checked my watch this morning, whilst waiting for the coffee shop to open. I couldn't honestly tell you precisely what time it was but, if pressed, I might say it was 07:15, but I'm not actually recalling a fact, only making an informed guess; it might have been 07:10 or 07:25. My only reason for checking the time was to gauge roughly how long I'd have to wait for my caffeine shot; I had no reason to register the time with any accuracy.

In similar vein, Cadoche presumably needed to check if he was roughly on track for work, but that would scarcely have warranted his registering such a specific time, still less to have recalled it with such precision when asked about it later. Seen in that light, how much confidence should we have?

so true
I put little stock in witnesses timings in terms of ruling them in or out as valid witnesses, what they saw/heard etc., or whatever people try to use it for these days.

Ive always gone by that as long as nothing else major questions their credibility, then their times, no matter how precise they tried to be, should be taken as approximate, and one cant really try to rule them out, or try to make conclusive statements based on times.