12:45 am

[Michael W Richards]

One additional point John, after reviewing your post....Isaac and Heschberg came out from the inside of the club, and Issac noted the time when he arrived back at the club, he didnt estimate...so there was a clock available to them. Fanny was in and out from 12:30 until 12:50 when she stood there continuously until 1am, she likely had a clock in her home that she had referred to when assessing the time.

The estimated times are almost exclusively club related John. Louis, Morris, Lave...all estimates. Wess...estimates.

There are very simple reasons for why Louis and Eagle would assess how best to handle this situation before taking any action, and there are very simple reasons why they would present stories that suggest they didn't even notice the woman until after she had been cut.

What the contradictory evidence suggests is that Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves, that Louis arrived around 12:40-45 and called upstairs for help, that Morris must have seen Liz as he arrived but later "couldn't be sure" if the dead woman was lying directly in the path he says he took. Louis then sends Issac out alone, and he and Eagle head out in different directions. At perhaps 12:50 ish. The rest of the stories are not a problem from that point, we know when the constable says he arrived there, and we know when Blackwell arrived.

All I have been saying is that Liz Stride was not seen by anyone on the street after 12:35-and that Louis and Eagle stretched the truth on timing to protect their jobs and the club.

[Michael W Richards]

ah I see. she wouldn't go home with him so he killed her. of course.

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled.

guess that's not convoluted enough.

Right, just killed her and fled. No issues. So, No desire to stay and mutilate then.....so how is this a Ripper?

[Harry D]

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled. .

Unfortunately that "simple truth" is not supported by the evidence, Abby. Stride was still clenching the cachous when she was killed, that would suggest she had let her guard down and was taken by surprise. Going into the yard with the man assaulting her doesn't really fit that scenario.

[Sam Flynn]

ah I see. she wouldn't go home with him so he killed her. of course.

Sarcastic, much?

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled. I guess that's not convoluted enough.

I don't do flights of fantasy or conspiracy theories.

Have you never heard of a squabble escalating to physical violence or even death? Nothing "convoluted" about that. On the contrary, it's a not-uncommon linear progression.

[John G]

Hi John:



For me, the coherent people who have no stake in any outcome of an investigation are far better truth barometers than ones that risk losing everything based upon a resulting perception by investigators.

Coherent people?

[John G]

One additional point John, after reviewing your post....Isaac and Heschberg came out from the inside of the club, and Issac noted the time when he arrived back at the club, he didnt estimate...so there was a clock available to them. Fanny was in and out from 12:30 until 12:50 when she stood there continuously until 1am, she likely had a clock in her home that she had referred to when assessing the time.

The estimated times are almost exclusively club related John. Louis, Morris, Lave...all estimates. Wess...estimates.

There are very simple reasons for why Louis and Eagle would assess how best to handle this situation before taking any action, and there are very simple reasons why they would present stories that suggest they didn't even notice the woman until after she had been cut.

What the contradictory evidence suggests is that Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves, that Louis arrived around 12:40-45 and called upstairs for help, that Morris must have seen Liz as he arrived but later "couldn't be sure" if the dead woman was lying directly in the path he says he took. Louis then sends Issac out alone, and he and Eagle head out in different directions. At perhaps 12:50 ish. The rest of the stories are not a problem from that point, we know when the constable says he arrived there, and we know when Blackwell arrived.

All I have been saying is that Liz Stride was not seen by anyone on the street after 12:35-and that Louis and Eagle stretched the truth on timing to protect their jobs and the club.

Hi Michael,

Firstly, the PC Smith sighting must have been between 12:40 and 12:45. Secondly, a discovery time of 1:00am is consistent with the evidence of Mortimer, PC Lamb, Spooner and Dr Blackwell. A 12:45 discovery time most certainly isn't. Thirdly, what is your source for Isaac having consulted a clock?

[Joshua Rogan]

Isaac and Heschberg came out from the inside of the club

Has it been established that Heshburg was even a member of the club, let alone inside it at the time of the murder?

Issac noted the time when he arrived back at the club, he didnt estimate...so there was a clock available to them.

Can you point out where Isaac says he noted the time by a clock in the club, please?

The estimated times are almost exclusively club related John. Louis, Morris, Lave...all estimates. Wess...estimates.

I thought Louis was one of the two (the other being Blackwell) who said he knew the actual time, having seen a clock as he turned into Berner St.

What the contradictory evidence suggests is that Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves

Incidentally, since PC Smith says the couple he saw were standing in the same place that Fanny says the couple who came to the yard were standing, do you think both Smith and Brown saw the same couple?

that Louis arrived around 12:40-45

Fanny must have been inside checking her clock when he came by. Strange she didn'd hear his cart though, did he leave it parked round the corner, and go back for it later?

Louis then sends Issac out alone

Once again, can you point out where Isaac says he was sent out "alone"?

we know when the constable says he arrived there

And we know that this was shortly before Heshburg, who was alerted to the murder by the sound of him blowing his whistle.

All I have been saying is that Liz Stride was not seen by anyone on the street after 12:35-and that Louis and Eagle stretched the truth on timing to protect their jobs and the club.

Well, that's not *all* you've been saying....

[John G]

Has it been established that Heshburg was even a member of the club, let alone inside it at the time of the murder?



Can you point out where Isaac says he noted the time by a clock in the club, please?



I thought Louis was one of the two (the other being Blackwell) who said he knew the actual time, having seen a clock as he turned into Berner St.


Incidentally, since PC Smith says the couple he saw were standing in the same place that Fanny says the couple who came to the yard were standing, do you think both Smith and Brown saw the same couple?



Fanny must have been inside checking her clock when he came by. Strange she didn'd hear his cart though, did he leave it parked round the corner, and go back for it later?



Once again, can you point out where Isaac says he was sent out "alone"?



And we know that this was shortly before Heshburg, who was alerted to the murder by the sound of him blowing his whistle.



Well, that's not *all* you've been saying....

Hi Joshua,

I think you're right about Louis and Dr Blackwell-and I'd be interested to see any source to the contrary- although I believe Goldstein also consulted a clock prior to leaving the coffee house.

[Abby Normal]

Right, just killed her and fled. No issues. So, No desire to stay and mutilate then.....so how is this a Ripper?

because the ripper was human and not a robot. lost his temper it seems, probably because she would not go gently into that secluded area. and yes fled once he realized he had been seen and or realized the situation was too hot.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Firstly, the PC Smith sighting must have been between 12:40 and 12:45. Secondly, a discovery time of 1:00am is consistent with the evidence of Mortimer, PC Lamb, Spooner and Dr Blackwell. A 12:45 discovery time most certainly isn't. Thirdly, what is your source for Isaac having consulted a clock?

I don't mind dealing with errors, but when people constantly challenge me using wrong data, then I do...."On Saturday last I went on duty at ten p.m. My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock".

The discovery time doesn't match Fannys times...she was at her door until 1 and saw or heard NOTHING in the streets...yet Louis say he arrived at exactly 1am. Its inconsistent with Spooner because he says he was by the dead woman around 12:45, and Blackwell estimated the cut time between 12:46-56, so it has nothing to do with Louis's arrival time.

And Issac says" About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was."

Your not alone though....

[Abby Normal]

Unfortunately that "simple truth" is not supported by the evidence, Abby. Stride was still clenching the cachous when she was killed, that would suggest she had let her guard down and was taken by surprise. Going into the yard with the man assaulting her doesn't really fit that scenario.

ef the cashoo, its a red herring. its common knowledge now that people hold onto small items through violence and death.
and who says she accompanied him willingly into the yard, let alone him forcing her.

she may have gone in on her own.

[Abby Normal]

Sarcastic, much?I don't do flights of fantasy or conspiracy theories.

Have you never heard of a squabble escalating to physical violence or even death? Nothing "convoluted" about that. On the contrary, it's a not-uncommon linear progression.

not if you have to turn Lipski into Lizzie, or try to imply a domestic with kidney, who wasn't there, If not him another phantom domestic partner perhaps?

BTW most domestic physical violence, especially that which leads to death, takes place in the home-not out in public.

so yes flight of fancy Sam, and I'm not being sarcastic.

[Michael W Richards]

Has it been established that Heshburg was even a member of the club, let alone inside it at the time of the murder?

It is a fact that he was upstairs at the club, if not a member, then an attendee. If you don't believe that look it up for yourself, I get tired of having to counter these ill informed counter posts

Can you point out where Isaac says he noted the time by a clock in the club, please?

I said there was clock in the club...go ahead, prove me wrong, and that he says he was alerted, by Louis, at about 20 minutes to 1.

B]I thought Louis was one of the two (the other being Blackwell) who said he knew the actual time, having seen a clock as he turned into Berner St.[/B]

Again with the errors...Blackwell checked his own watch, and Louis claim is directly disputed by the fact that Fanny Mortimer, who saw Leon at 12:55..then stayed the door until 1am..saw NO ONE.

Incidentally, since PC Smith says the couple he saw were standing in the same place that Fanny says the couple who came to the yard were standing, do you think both Smith and Brown saw the same couple?

I think Smith saw Stride...by his id...and I think Brown saw the young couple also seen by Fanny.

Fanny must have been inside checking her clock when he came by. Strange she didn'd hear his cart though, did he leave it parked round the corner, and go back for it later?

See if you can find anyone accounting for that horse and cart when the police arrived. He says he arrived "at 1". Fanny, would have seen and heard him arrive if he had.


Once again, can you point out where Isaac says he was sent out "alone"?

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one". I believe "I" is singular, is it not?

I don't need to be the one correcting the facts, you don't like the suppositions I make fine, but please don't counter evidence that you should have read yourself before having any conversations about it.

[Michael W Richards]

Coherent people?

People who gave coherent statements in English.

[John G]

I don't mind dealing with errors, but when people constantly challenge me using wrong data, then I do...."On Saturday last I went on duty at ten p.m. My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock".

The discovery time doesn't match Fannys times...she was at her door until 1 and saw or heard NOTHING in the streets...yet Louis say he arrived at exactly 1am. Its inconsistent with Spooner because he says he was by the dead woman around 12:45, and Blackwell estimated the cut time between 12:46-56, so it has nothing to do with Louis's arrival time.

And Issac says" About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was."

Your not alone though....

This is a most unfortunate post for it contains no merit. One: Mortimer wasn't at her door for the whole period. Two: has I've explained to you Spooner says he arrived at the scene 5 minutes before PC Lamb, who arrived 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell, who arrived at 1:16. This means PC Lamb arrived at around 1:05, and Spooned at about 1:00am. This has already been explained to you. Forget Spooner's estimate, it was clearly wrong, he didn't consult a watch/clock but relied on the pub closing times! Three: PC Smith must have been wrong with his time estimate. Not could have been; must have been. Please read and digest post 105: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9642&page=11