torso maps

[RockySullivan]

Just out of interest where are the Ripper style outdoor murders with necks cut and abdominal mutilations between 1873 and 1887?

Why do you think a killer has to use that exact method? Where he kills and how can change over time. Mary Kelly was killed indoors.

[RockySullivan]

My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of the Torso victims were never identified. If we don't know their identity, how can we conclude that they were all sex workers?

Even if all the Torso victims were sex workers, there is nothing at all to rule out two killers attacking sex workers. They were the easiest of targets after all.

oh rocky no one said all the torso killer victims were sex workers. The fact is we know they both killed sex workers because we know the identity of jackson. Again, if serial killers who kill sex workers are so common let's see some others in London from the 1800s?

[John Wheat]

Why do you think a killer has to use that exact method? Where he kills and how can change over time. Mary Kelly was killed indoors.

Serial killers use the same method unless changing there method radically is there M. O. such as the Zodiac Killer. Although there method does evolve over time such as Jack's murder of Mary Jane Kelly. Perhaps you should read up on this as you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[RockySullivan]

Serial killers use the same method unless changing there method radically is there M. O. such as the Zodiac Killer. Although there method does evolve over time such as Jack's murder of Mary Jane Kelly. Perhaps you should read up on this as you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Only if you to stick to some outdated profiling pseudoscience. "Serial killers use the same method unless changing there method radically is there M. O. such as the Zodiac Killer". Lol what kind of nonsense is that?

[John Wheat]

Only if you to stick to some outdated profiling pseudoscience. "Serial killers use the same method unless changing there method radically is there M. O. such as the Zodiac Killer". Lol what kind of nonsense is that?

Nonsense is the fanciful idea that the Ripper and The Torso Killer were one and the same. Its about as likely as pigs flying.

[RockySullivan]

Nonsense is the fanciful idea that the Ripper and The Torso Killer were one and the same. Its about as likely as pigs flying.

Ok then can you provide any other examples of 19th century serial killers in the UK who killed sex workers? That would demonstrate how common it is. There wouldn't happen to be no other examples of serial killers who killed sex workers would there? Jack the Ripper and the Torso Killer just happen to be the first and only examples of serial killers in 19th century London who killed sex workers?

[Abby Normal]

My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of the Torso victims were never identified. If we don't know their identity, how can we conclude that they were all sex workers?

Even if all the Torso victims were sex workers, there is nothing at all to rule out two killers attacking sex workers. They were the easiest of targets after all.

The totally different MOs, geographical locations, dismemberment v evisceration etc lead me to believe that the Whitechapel murders and the Torso killings are extremely unlikely to have been committed by the same hand.

Hi OH!

My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of the Torso victims were never identified. If we don't know their identity, how can we conclude that they were all sex workers?

Jackson was. and perhaps the others were never IDed because they were-no one cared about them.

Even if all the Torso victims were sex workers, there is nothing at all to rule out two killers attacking sex workers. They were the easiest of targets after all.

Yes prostitutes do make easy targets-agree. but serial killers target all kinds of people. Victimology can vary greatly. But they just happen to both target prostitutes.

Plus as RS has said, this is early on in SK history, and apparently both just happen around the same time and the first time in London? another coincidence?

The totally different MOs, geographical locations, dismemberment v evisceration etc lead me to believe that the Whitechapel murders and the Torso killings are extremely unlikely to have been committed by the same hand.

MOs can vary with the same killer-its a well known fact. and the apparent difference in MO can easily be because the killer had different circs. as in his chop shop wasnt available and had to kill on the streets.

[Abby Normal]

Serial killers use the same method unless changing there method radically is there M. O. such as the Zodiac Killer. Although there method does evolve over time such as Jack's murder of Mary Jane Kelly. Perhaps you should read up on this as you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

for someone who thinks Bury is the ripper (as you know hes one of my favored suspects too) I would think you would be amenable to a changing MO based on the killers personal circumstances!

[FrankO]

Again, if serial killers who kill sex workers are so common let's see some others in London from the 1800s?

Not that it's so important, Rocky, but Dr. Thomas Neill Cream comes to mind.


All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Not that it's so important, Rocky, but Dr. Thomas Neill Cream comes to mind.

Indeed, also the non-canonical Whitechapel Murders victims, and possibly one or two of the Canonical Five as well.

[RockySullivan]

Not that it's so important, Rocky, but Dr. Thomas Neill Cream comes to mind.


All the best,
Frank

franks frank. just to clarify, it sounds like Cream didnt kill any sex workers in the uk until 1891 so still no one before the ripper?

[FrankO]

MOs can vary with the same killer-its a well known fact. and the apparent difference in MO can easily be because the killer had different circs.

They may vary their MO and they may go from high risk to low(er) risk, Abby, but I haven’t come any serial killer case in which the murderer changes to an MO that is as extremely more risky than his original MO as would be the case if Torso man changed into the Ripper (and then, oddly enough, back again).

as in his chop shop wasnt available and had to kill on the streets.

According to the medical evidence the Whitehall victim was killed shortly before Nichols and parts of her body were dumped after Chapman was murdered. This means the Whitehall body was stored during at least the Nichols and Chapman murders and, thus, that Torso man had some private place where he could leave the body without it being noticed. Do you think (it likely that) his “chop shop” and “storehouse” were 2 different places then?

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

franks frank. just to clarify, it sounds like Cream didnt kill any sex workers in the uk until 1891 so still no one before the ripper?

Like I said, Rocky, it's not that important for the reasons already mentioned.

[Abby Normal]

They may vary their MO and they may go from high risk to low(er) risk, Abby, but I haven’t come any serial killer case in which the murderer changes to an MO that is as extremely more risky than his original MO as would be the case if Torso man changed into the Ripper (and then, oddly enough, back again).
According to the medical evidence the Whitehall victim was killed shortly before Nichols and parts of her body were dumped after Chapman was murdered. This means the Whitehall body was stored during at least the Nichols and Chapman murders and, thus, that Torso man had some private place where he could leave the body without it being noticed. Do you think (it likely that) his “chop shop” and “storehouse” were 2 different places then?

All the best,
Frank

well if it was stored then perhaps, who knows?

[RockySullivan]

They may vary their MO and they may go from high risk to low(er) risk, Abby, but I haven’t come any serial killer case in which the murderer changes to an MO that is as extremely more risky than his original MO as would be the case if Torso man changed into the Ripper (and then, oddly enough, back again).

Have a look at the Mad Butcher, or the Cleveland Torso Killer as he is also known.

eptember 1934: A young man finds the lower half of a women’s torso, thighs still attached, but amputated at the knees, washed up on the shores of Lake Erie just east of Bratenahl. Cuyahoga County Coroner A.J. Pierce noted some sort of chemical preservative on the skin which had turned it red, tough and leathery. The subsequent search yielded only a few other body parts. The body was that of a female in her mid-thirties. The head was never found. The woman was never identified. She is only referred to as “The Lady of the Lake”. It wasn’t until two years later that this find was included in the official killing total and thus became known as victim #0. It would be another year before the case began officially, and then it would be in another part of the city-the now infamous Kingsbury Run.

September 1935: Two teenage boys discover the decapitated, emasculated corpse of a white male at the base of Jackass Hill where East 49th Street dead ends into Kingsbury Run. The body, naked save for a pair of socks, was clean and drained of blood. There were rope burns around both wrists. Coroner Pierce determined the cause of death had been decapitation. Fingerprints identified this victim as Edward Andrassy, a twenty-eight-year old white male. Andrassy had an arrest record, was rumored to be a homosexual, and frequented the Roaring Third. Police discovered a second body nearby, also decapitated and emasculated. It appeared to be covered with the same chemical preservative as the Lady of the Lake. This body apparently had been dead for at least a couple of weeks. The forty-year old white male was never identified.

January 1936: A woman discovers about half the body of a female neatly wrapped in newspaper and packed in two half-bushel baskets. The baskets were left alongside the Hart Manufacturing building on Central Avenue near East 20th Street. Everything except the head was recovered about ten days later in a vacant lot on nearby Orange Avenue. As in the case of Edward Andrassy, the cause of death had been decapitation. For some reason, however, the killer had waited for rigor mortis to set in before disarticulating the rest of the body. Fingerprints again would allow the identification of one Florence Polillo, waitress, bar maid and prostitute. At the time of her death she resided at East 32nd Street and Carnegie, right on the edge of the Roaring Third.

June 1936: Early one morning in Kingsbury Run, two young boys discovered the head of a white male wrapped in a pair of trousers close to the East 55th Street bridge.

http://www.clevelandpolicemuseum.org/collections/torso-murders/

Considering how much the butcher changed up his mo I don't understand why sometimes dismembering woman and packaging them up and sometimes decapitating males, post mortem mutilation of genitals and leaving them outside in fields is acceptable modus operani variation but the ripper/torso variations are not.