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  • #76
    I disagree, Rocky. For one thing, we're not talking about the same territory, but the opposite ends of the most populous city in Europe. For another, the wounds are very different, as are the timescales and frequency of the murders. I could go on, but that'll do.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      I disagree, Rocky. For one thing, we're not talking about the same territory, but the opposite ends of the most populous city in Europe. For another, the wounds are very different, as are the timescales and frequency of the murders. I could go on, but that'll do.
      You are misleading rather heavily here, Gareth, so let´s correct you point by point:

      1. You say that we are talking about the "opposite ends of the most populous city in the world". That would mean the far East and the far West.
      But the actual truth is that we have no idea where the torso victims were picked up and killed, but for the Pinchin Street victim, where there is reason to surmise that she was at least cut up in close proximity to where she was found - which was in the East. Not in the West.
      Other torso victim parts were found in various places like Tottenham, St Pancras Lock, Battersea, none of which are in the extreme West.

      It´s all good and well to point out that the torso parts were not found (with the Pinchin Street exception) in Ripper territory. But let´s keep in mind that the parts were actually transported to where they were dumped, meaning that the dumper had the means to take them whereever he wanted to. And all the while, that says nothing about where he was based, where he found the women and where he killed them.

      The TRUE difference in this context is that some were dismembered while others were not. And there are examples of serial killers who have varied this detail inbetween victims. Many serialists are opportunists, and that means that they are ready and willing to take their chances even if it means varying their MO

      Basically, your point is heavily flawed and does not stand up to scrutiny.

      2. You claim that the wounds were very different, and that too is a flawed statement. There were wounds that differed a lot, but since some were dismembered and others not, that will always be the case. However! There were many wounds that were very much alike inbetween the cases, like abdomens cut open all the way down, like flaps being cut away from the abdomens, like uteri being cut out, like necks (and throats) being deeply cut. We can argue til the cows come home about how similar these damages were, but let´s halt that discussion in favour of recognizing that these thing DID happen to victims in both serie and that we cannot say that the wounds were very different for that reason. Some were, due to the dismemberment factor, but others may have been very much alike.

      3. You say that the timescales and the frequencies differed. Yes, if we go by the victims we think belong to each series, they did. Then again, many serial killers are erratic in this respect, laying off the killing for years, then killing frequently again etcetera. So there is a difference, but it is not necessarily significant in any way, and it certainly does not tell us that the two were different killers.

      Once again, having two serial killers in the same city, overlapping in time, targetting prostitutes (as far as we can tell), cutting the abdomens open, taking out organs, providing very little or no torture, and both taking away abdominal walls in large flaps (in some cases) puts any discussion of two killers to rest once we apply the laws of logic.

      The only useful thing about the differences you perceive and overstate rather grossly is that they can - and probably will - teach us more about the killer we are hunting that we have ever been able to learn before.

      If we are willing to learn, that is...
      Last edited by Fisherman; 07-18-2018, 11:57 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
        That's pure hogwash. There's quite a bit that suggests the cases could be related. For instance: two serial killers operating at the same time in the same territory both targeting female sex workers and removing organs and both leaving dead bodies or body parts in public. I think the most significant is that they both show a similar skill when it comes to mutilating the bodies. Would anyone care to disagree with me on this?
        No you are talking pure hogwash. They don't both show a similar skill. Plus one killer dismembered and the other did not. They did not operate at the same time 1873-1889 one and the other 1888. That is not the same time it's an overlap. Jack targeted a small area of London. The Torso Killer operated all around London. We don't know that The Torso Killer targeted sex workers only one was identified so unless your a clairvoyant how do you know The Torso Killer targeted sex workers?

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        • #79
          Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
          No you are talking pure hogwash. They don't both show a similar skill. Plus one killer dismembered and the other did not. They did not operate at the same time 1873-1889 one and the other 1888. That is not the same time it's an overlap. Jack targeted a small area of London. The Torso Killer operated all around London. We don't know that The Torso Killer targeted sex workers only one was identified so unless your a clairvoyant how do you know The Torso Killer targeted sex workers?
          They don't show similar skill? Please go into some forensic detail for us.
          One killer dismembered and the other didnt, but they both mutilated. While Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered she's cut to pieces. They didn't operate at the same time but there's overlap? They were both operating at the same time in 1888. Period, the Whitehall torso found in October. Operating in the same location, Berner St-Pinchin proximity. Torso killer killed(TARGETED) Liz Jackson therefore him and Jack both killed sex workers. Period.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
            They were both operating at the same time in 1888. Period, the Whitehall torso found in October. Operating in the same location, Berner St-Pinchin proximity.
            That's just one example each of time and location, when ALL the other times and locations differed. Plus, it should be borne in mind that the only torso victim left in the East End was deposited in part of the East End where the most contentious of the canonical Ripper victims was slain.
            While Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered she's cut to pieces
            But she's not in the least bit "jointed", and all her abdominal (and two thoracic organs) were entirely removed. Nothing remotely like that happened to the majority of the torso victims and, of the one or two whose organs were removed, the evisceration was trivial compared to Kelly, or even Eddowes and Chapman for that matter.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              That's just one example each of time and location, when ALL the other times and locations differed. Plus, it should be borne in mind that the only torso victim left in the East End was deposited in part of the East End where the most contentious of the canonical Ripper victims was slain.But she's not in the least bit "jointed", and all her abdominal (and two thoracic organs) were entirely removed. Nothing remotely like that happened to the majority of the torso victims and, of the one or two whose organs were removed, the evisceration was trivial compared to Kelly, or even Eddowes and Chapman for that matter.
              Yes one example of them both in the East End, and one example of them both killing sex workers. Extremely significant nonetheless as both serial killers killed sex workers and show activity in the East End. Whether all the other torso victims are sex workers is unknown since they are unidentified. Maybe Kelly wasn't jointed, but I find it interesting how the ripper nearly decapitated his victims and I do wonder if that could have been attempted. Couldn't disagree with you more about the triviality of the evisceration. Look at all the organs removed from Jackson and how they were packaged up. interesting in light of how the Ripper may have packaged up the half kidney and sent it in the mail. And he mutilated the abdomen of the Pinchin torso. Same killer? No way! I'm not even going to entertain that possibility for a 100 years.

              Phillips on the Pinchin Torso: I believe the mutilation to have been subsequent to death, that the mutilations were effected by some one accustomed to cut up animals or to see them cut up, and that the incisions were effected by a strong knife 8in. or more long.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                Couldn't disagree with you more about the triviality of the evisceration. Look at all the organs removed from Jackson
                Doesn't begin to compare with Kelly, sorry, and what about the other torso victims who didn't have organs removed? Heck, one of them (Pinchin) didn't even have her arms removed, so there isn't even any consistency within the torso series.

                As to sex workers, we don't know about any other torso victim apart from Jackson, but even if they were all prostitutes it means very little. Prostitutes were, and still are, easy targets for murderers.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Doesn't begin to compare with Kelly, sorry, and what about the other torso victims who didn't have organs removed? Heck, one of them (Pinchin) didn't even have her arms removed, so there isn't even any consistency within the torso series.

                  As to sex workers, we don't know about any other torso victim apart from Jackson, but even if they were all prostitutes it means very little. Prostitutes were, and still are, easy targets for murderers.
                  I'm sorry but how is the post mortem mutilation and organ removal of Liz Jackson "uncomparable" to Mary Kelly's mutilations? There are distinct forensic similarities in the mutilations between these two. You just asked me why all the torsos didn't have their organs removed and then went on to explain how much inconsistency there was in the series. As for sex workers, two serial killers who both remove organs operating in London in 1888 and both kill sex workers. What other serial killers, before Jack the ripper killed his victims and before the torso killer killed Liz Jackson, targeted sex workers? Would you mind giving us some serial killers and how many sex workers they killed pre-1888 in London?
                  Last edited by RockySullivan; 07-19-2018, 06:34 AM.

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                  • #84
                    I can tell that your mind is closed, so I won't waste any more time on the matter.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      I can tell that your mind is closed, so I won't waste any more time on the matter.
                      Not only is his mind closed he's also wrong on pretty much all points. Just like Fisherman it's a waste of time reasoning with him.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        I can tell that your mind is closed, so I won't waste any more time on the matter.
                        Is that a joke? You are the one who is saying it's not possible while I am the one saying it is and you want to call me close minded? Why don't you address the inconsistencies in your argument rather than project how you feel onto me

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                        • #87
                          Sounds like you guys can't find pre-1888 London serial killer who killed sex workers

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                          • #88
                            well said Fish and rocky.
                            and the only ones whos mind are obviously closed on this are Sam and wheat.

                            theres so many similarities that one has to consider the possibility they were the same man:

                            Same geographic location
                            Same victimology
                            same time frame
                            Knife used
                            unsolved
                            ruse probably used
                            post mortem mutilation
                            Stomch flesh removed in flaps
                            removal of both external and internal body parts
                            Throats cut
                            bodies/parts not overtly hidden
                            Abdomans targeted



                            I mean cmon how much more do you want?


                            of course there are differences but could be explained by killers circs!
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

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                            • #89
                              Just out of interest where are the Ripper style outdoor murders with necks cut and abdominal mutilations between 1873 and 1887?

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                              • #90
                                My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of the Torso victims were never identified. If we don't know their identity, how can we conclude that they were all sex workers?

                                Even if all the Torso victims were sex workers, there is nothing at all to rule out two killers attacking sex workers. They were the easiest of targets after all.

                                The totally different MOs, geographical locations, dismemberment v evisceration etc lead me to believe that the Whitechapel murders and the Torso killings are extremely unlikely to have been committed by the same hand.

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