torso maps

[Abby Normal]

It actually isn't all that detailed. I could have done with just the last 2 conditions in my earlier post:
- the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
- the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
The first 2 conditions were just there to define a series.
I'm not that interested in finding examples, but would rather like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
Not as far as I know.

Hi Frank
well im no criminal psychologist but I would posit that the ripper was also a planner:

He used a ruse to get the victims where he wanted them-posing as a client. The torsoman probably did the same.

He surely planned which nights he was going to be actively hunting-had to bring the knife, have money to show, perhaps rag, bag or gloves. wear dark clothes that wouldnt show blood stains.

And since he was always one step ahead of the police-perhaps planned when to strike according to beats.

The evidence shows Mary probably knew her killer-so he probably planned on targeting her-especially if he knew she had her own place and knew she recently broke up and was single again.

re slow vs Outburst. To me if they were the same-the outburst is possible because his chop shop not available and or hes upping the thrill factor.
which with this climax he stops for a while and then Mckenzie and pinchon later and then both series end at the same time. The ending of both series at the same time is very much more significant than any changes during the series in my mind.

[Sam Flynn]

like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.

Eh?!!! Despite the clear difference in geography, the disparity in the ages of the victims, and the nature of the wounds, etc? You surprise me, Frank

[FrankO]

Sure-the torsoripper.

But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.

It actually isn't all that detailed. I could have done with just the last 2 conditions in my earlier post:
- the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
- the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
The first 2 conditions were just there to define a series.

No one can even answer this very broad one-

I'm not that interested in finding examples, but would rather like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.

have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?

Not as far as I know.

[Sam Flynn]

But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.

It's not a "minutiae rabbit hole", it's merely taking things down one level, which hardly constitutes "minutiae". For example:

Level 1 - Same area
Level 2 - Opposite ends of a large city

Level 1 - Neck wounds
Level 2 - Throat cutting in the Ripper series / Beheadings in the Torso murders

It's all a matter of being accurate with the data. Level 1 arguments are way too high-level to make any valid comparisons; indeed, the two examples I've given are misleading and/or inaccurate, but that hasn't stopped them being used by pro-Torsoripper advocates.

your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.

The details are very different, particularly at Level 2, but also at Level 1 if we're honest with ourselves.

No one can even answer this very broad one- have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?

No one can answer that because the question is invalid. The torso killer/s was/were primarily into dismemberment, not evisceration.

[RockySullivan]

He didn't mix things up, but evolved in escalating stages, each exhibiting distinct characteristics. More of a progression than a variety act.

False

[Abby Normal]

What I’m looking for, Abby, is at least 2 distinct & subsequent series:
- with at the very least 3 victims in each series
- in which all murders (but for the exception) were committed at different dates or locations
- the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
- the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
Victimology & change of weapon/mode to kill are unimportant.

Cheers,
Frank

Sure-the torsoripper.

But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.

No one can even answer this very broad one- have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?

[FrankO]

Just off the top of my head:
Panzram
Albert fish
HH Holmes
Ted Bundy
Shawcross
Zodiac
Henry Lee Lucas
Herbert Mullin
Richard Chase
etc.

many serial killers who changes there MO, sig, timeframes even Victomology! based on circs, changing fanatsy, escalation. Any one (usually more) of there victims could have been, and were, thought to have been from another killer because of differences.

What I’m looking for, Abby, is at least 2 distinct & subsequent series:
- with at the very least 3 victims in each series
- in which all murders (but for the exception) were committed at different dates or locations
- the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
- the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
Victimology & change of weapon/mode to kill are unimportant.

Cheers,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

This isn't true lots of outdoor activity & he switches his mo up a lot. Great example of many series not being linked to one offender because people are so insistent offenders cant variate or move.

He didn't mix things up, but evolved in escalating stages, each exhibiting distinct characteristics. More of a progression than a variety act.

[Sam Flynn]

Just off the top of my head:
Panzram
Albert fish
HH Holmes
Ted Bundy
Shawcross
Zodiac
Henry Lee Lucas
Herbert Mullin
Richard Chase
etc.

many serial killers who changes there MO, sig, timeframes even Victomology!

Just off the top of my head, not really.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Abby,

I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

The best,
Frank

This isn't true lots of outdoor activity & he switches his mo up a lot. Great example of many series not being linked to one offender because people are so insistent offenders cant variate or move.

[Abby Normal]

His "career" seems to have occupied three different phases. He murdered one man during his ransacking phase, and killed a couple during his rape phase, but in both instances he was either challenged or the victims were gunned down while running away (he also used his gun, non-fatally, on a separate occasion, but only in response to a policeman accosting him). During his murder phase, his favoured method was to bludgeon his victims to death as a postlude to rape.

Overall, DeAngelo strikes me a clear case of escalation, not someone alternating between different MOs during the same period of time.

and then we have the boston strangler-who went from raping and killing to back to just raping.
even during the raping and killing stage-he had different MOs-strangled, beat and stabbed to death different victims. and of vastly different ages. many though different killers.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for the additional information, Gareth.
I agree. The second part of what you wrote here is another reason why he's not a prime example of what I'm looking for.

Just off the top of my head:
Panzram
Albert fish
HH Holmes
Ted Bundy
Shawcross
Zodiac
Henry Lee Lucas
Herbert Mullin
Richard Chase
etc.

many serial killers who changes there MO, sig, timeframes even Victomology! based on circs, changing fanatsy, escalation. Any one (usually more) of there victims could have been, and were, thought to have been from another killer because of differences.


you guys really need to get out more. ; )

[Sam Flynn]

My pleasure, Frank, and I agree with your take on the matter, too.

[FrankO]

His "career" seems to have occupied three different phases. He murdered one man during his ransacking phase, and killed a couple during his rape phase, but in both instances he was either challenged or the victims were gunned down while running away (he also used his gun, non-fatally, on a separate occasion, but only in response to a policeman accosting him). During his murder phase, his favoured method was to bludgeon his victims to death as a postlude to rape.

Thanks for the additional information, Gareth.

Overall, DeAngelo strikes me a clear case of escalation, not someone alternating between different MOs during the same period of time.

I agree. The second part of what you wrote here is another reason why he's not a prime example of what I'm looking for.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

The best,
Frank

and I appreciate yours. But, as the norm with folks on the other side of this debate-everytime we give a similarity you drill down to more detail to highlight more and more minute differences in response. Down the minutia hole we go.

you can play that game with everything. we could do it between the differences between the ripper murders to argue all the victims were killed by different men.


The fact of the matter is that history has born out with serial killers:

They change there MO-sometimes drastically

They even change their their sig-depending on fantasy and escalation.

They change time frames, stop for long periods and change frequency.


Now re GSK and torso/ripper- The ripper killed indoors-mary Kelly. we assume Torsoman did but perhaps not with all. Whitehall some have put forth she was killed there.


GSK-depending on the circs-killed outdoors-the maggiores and Claude Snelling. Also, tried to abduct and bring out of the house a couple of times.


One really does have to take all this-changing circs for the killer, change and or escalation in fantasy etc., into account when looking at apparent differences (when there are so many other similarities) for accurate analysis IMHO.