torso maps

[Sam Flynn]

not if he was interrupted as he was with Stride and Nichols.

Was he interrupted during the two stabs to the left side of her neck, the (not unduly deep) cut from the breast to the navel, the scratches on her belly, or the single small cut to her pubic area?

[Abby Normal]

I'm aware of the other problems with McKenzie John. To be honest considering the gap if McKenzie was a Ripper victim than surely a killer like the Ripper would have really gone to town you'd expect the mutilations to be similar to those inflicted on Mary Jane Kelly.

not if he was interrupted as he was with Stride and Nichols.

[Abby Normal]

would anyone like to remark on and explain why both the ripper and torso series ended at about the same time? One that went on for years and another, if you include Mckenzie, and I do, about a year?

have yet to see anyone really take this one on.

[Abby Normal]

I can see the analogy, Abby, but it only goes so far. What the Ripper did to his victims took longer than doing coke (correct me if I’m wrong); what he did was more conspicuous & looked more suspicious than doing coke and, last but not least, getting caught cutting up a woman would mean he would hang, whereas getting caught doing coke wouldn’t.
That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it far from convinces me.

Cheers

Frank im not making a direct comparison. Its an analogy so again the detailed point by point you made is misguided.

Im trying to say that the urge is there, perhaps thrill factor too, and if the usual MO is not available (say perhaps because no access to chop shop, or maybe he was having problems getting women to it for some reason) then MO may change.

Urge is strong. Different circs. Differnt MO.

[John Wheat]

There are other problems with McKenzie as well, John, such as the absence of the "Ripper's" signature neck mutilations, and extensive abdominal mutilations and organ removal.

I'm aware of the other problems with McKenzie John. To be honest considering the gap if McKenzie was a Ripper victim than surely a killer like the Ripper would have really gone to town you'd expect the mutilations to be similar to those inflicted on Mary Jane Kelly.

[John G]

Stride may not have been a Ripper victim. The big problem with McKenzie is why the comparatively large gap?

There are other problems with McKenzie as well, John, such as the absence of the "Ripper's" signature neck mutilations, and extensive abdominal mutilations and organ removal.

[John Wheat]

If mckenzie isnt a ripper victim than neither is stride and eddowes

Stride may not have been a Ripper victim. The big problem with McKenzie is why the comparatively large gap?

[FrankO]

Let me give you an example. When i was young and more stupid and reckless i liked to do coke. Most of the time i liked to do it in the comfort of my home, having purchased from friends, and would indulge at leisure. Howeber, there was a period when the habit was at its worst, where if i ran out, i would go out and buy it from “dealers” out on the street or pushers at some coke house and do some there. This was more impulsive, less plannning, riskier, and even the way i took it was different.

Hopefully you can see the analogy.

I can see the analogy, Abby, but it only goes so far. What the Ripper did to his victims took longer than doing coke (correct me if I’m wrong); what he did was more conspicuous & looked more suspicious than doing coke and, last but not least, getting caught cutting up a woman would mean he would hang, whereas getting caught doing coke wouldn’t.

Where as i agree there is probably more planning that needs to be involved in the torso murders its not that much of a distinction really to be significant.

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it far from convinces me.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

I'm OK with excluding Stride, but not Eddowes. McKenzie neither had a uterus, kidney nor any other lower abdominal organ removed, mainly because her abdomen wasn't cut through. Indeed, her only abdominal cut extended from the bottom of her breast to her navel, i.e. on the upper abdomen, and it was not deep, either.

Stride, of course, sustained no abdominal wounds at all, only a cut throat - and that not as severe as we've seen in other Ripper victims. In my view, both she and McKenzie were killed by two different men, and neither of them was the Ripper. Or Torsoman, for that matter.

oh shoot Sam-I meant to say stride or Nichols!!!! sorry!

[Sam Flynn]

If mckenzie isnt a ripper victim than neither is stride and eddowes

I'm OK with excluding Stride, but not Eddowes. McKenzie neither had a uterus, kidney nor any other lower abdominal organ removed, mainly because her abdomen wasn't cut through. Indeed, her only abdominal cut extended from the bottom of her breast to her navel, i.e. on the upper abdomen, and it was not deep, either.

Stride, of course, sustained no abdominal wounds at all, only a cut throat - and that not as severe as we've seen in other Ripper victims. In my view, both she and McKenzie were killed by two different men, and neither of them was the Ripper. Or Torsoman, for that matter.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Then we don’t see I to eye on this one. There’s simply nothing in the evidence that supports the notion that the Ripper was much, if anything, of a planner. He needed to do no more than to go out at night with murder on his mind, walk around until a woman accosted him, accept her proposal, show her the money, go with her and that was that. He certainly didn’t need to talk or charm her into anything. He, quite likely, would have always had the knife on him, as people then & there had almost everything they owned (which was very little) on them all the time and I’m quite sure that the clothes he wore were old, dirty and therefore rather dark.

I think the Ripper was smart enough to choose the nightly hours of lull to kill, to cut the throat of his victims in such a way that he didn’t get all covered in blood and to keep a keen eye/ear on his surroundings, so that he got away in time. And, of course, he was enough in control of himself to not give himself away or draw attention to him at any time right before and after the murders. That’s about as far as we can go, based on the evidence.

But even if we were to accept that the Ripper was a planner, then we would also have to accept that Torso Man was an über-planner and, in this sense, the gap between them as suggested by the evidence, would remain.

Cheers

Hi hs
No we dont see eye to eye on this one.

Where as i agree there is probably more planning that needs to be involved in the torso murders its not that much of a distinction really to be significant.

Let me give you an example. When i was young and more stupid and reckless i liked to do coke. Most of the time i liked to do it in the comfort of my home, having purchased from friends, and would indulge at leisure. Howeber, there was a period when the habit was at its worst, where if i ran out, i would go out and buy it from “dealers” out on the street or pushers at some coke house and do some there. This was more impulsive, less plannning, riskier, and even the way i took it was different.

Hopefully you can see the analogy.

[Abby Normal]

Exactly Sam. On this thread people keep posting things like same area. When the two sets of murders occurred at different points of a large city. Also Alice McKenzie's murder is lumped in with The Ripper murders for conveinence when logically it's unlikely she was a Ripper victim.

If mckenzie isnt a ripper victim than neither is stride and eddowes

[FrankO]

Hi Frank
well im no criminal psychologist but I would posit that the ripper was also a planner:

Hi Abby,

Then we don’t see I to eye on this one. There’s simply nothing in the evidence that supports the notion that the Ripper was much, if anything, of a planner. He needed to do no more than to go out at night with murder on his mind, walk around until a woman accosted him, accept her proposal, show her the money, go with her and that was that. He certainly didn’t need to talk or charm her into anything. He, quite likely, would have always had the knife on him, as people then & there had almost everything they owned (which was very little) on them all the time and I’m quite sure that the clothes he wore were old, dirty and therefore rather dark.

I think the Ripper was smart enough to choose the nightly hours of lull to kill, to cut the throat of his victims in such a way that he didn’t get all covered in blood and to keep a keen eye/ear on his surroundings, so that he got away in time. And, of course, he was enough in control of himself to not give himself away or draw attention to him at any time right before and after the murders. That’s about as far as we can go, based on the evidence.

But even if we were to accept that the Ripper was a planner, then we would also have to accept that Torso Man was an über-planner and, in this sense, the gap between them as suggested by the evidence, would remain.

Cheers

[FrankO]

Eh?!!! Despite the clear difference in geography, the disparity in the ages of the victims, and the nature of the wounds, etc? You surprise me, Frank

I just like to surprise every now & then, Gareth.

But seriously, I see the "patient planner" vs. the "impatient doer" aspect as the most important, but would like to hear what they would make of the nature of the wounds and the geography, as well.

[John Wheat]

It's not a "minutiae rabbit hole", it's merely taking things down one level, which hardly constitutes "minutiae". For example:

Level 1 - Same area
Level 2 - Opposite ends of a large city

Level 1 - Neck wounds
Level 2 - Throat cutting in the Ripper series / Beheadings in the Torso murders

It's all a matter of being accurate with the data. Level 1 arguments are way too high-level to make any valid comparisons; indeed, the two examples I've given are misleading and/or inaccurate, but that hasn't stopped them being used by pro-Torsoripper advocates.
The details are very different, particularly at Level 2, but also at Level 1 if we're honest with ourselves.
No one can answer that because the question is invalid. The torso killer/s was/were primarily into dismemberment, not evisceration.

Exactly Sam. On this thread people keep posting things like same area. When the two sets of murders occurred at different points of a large city. Also Alice McKenzie's murder is lumped in with The Ripper murders for conveinence when logically it's unlikely she was a Ripper victim.