torso maps

[Abby Normal]

The idea that you can come up with any completely random explanation for why the two series are so massively different in method and yet scream ‘no way’ when it comes to a few possible mutilation similarities between a couple of the victims borders on conspiracy thinking. The suggestion that one person can’t, by chance, make similar cuts to another is pathetic. Anyone who says that they are ‘certain’ of one killer is delusional. I go for the canonical five but I’m still not ‘certain’ of that.

We need a little less certainty. We need fewer people who really do think that they are Sherlock Holmes. We need fewer people who believe ‘I come to this conclusion so it must be true.”

Until someone comes up with anything approaching conclusive proof, and they categorically haven’t yet, I’ll say that Jack The Ripper wasn’t the Torso Killer. I may be wrong (an admission that some appear to be psychologically incapable of making) but I’ll take my position until such time as the ‘geniuses’ prove otherwise.

Hi HS

I go for the canonical five but I’m still not ‘certain’ of that.

Tabram and McKenzie are both ripper victims IMHO-so as far as the ripper series-I see 7 victims.

Tabram and Mackenzie:
Both unfortunates
killed in middle of the night
knife used
abdoman and or throat targeted
same geographic location
unsolved


The clincher for me is there skirts were hiked up-like chapman and eddowes

So not just a prima facie similarity, but showing the killer had a desire to expose the abdoman for targeting/interest in that area.


and since I come to the conclusion that McKenzi was a ripper victim-I see both the ripper series and torso series (pinchin) ending at roughly the same time. another coincidence?

[John Wheat]

Hi HS



Tabram and McKenzie are both ripper victims IMHO-so as far as the ripper series-I see 7 victims.

Tabram and Mackenzie:
Both unfortunates
killed in middle of the night
knife used
abdoman and or throat targeted
same geographic location
unsolved


The clincher for me is there skirts were hiked up-like chapman and eddowes

So not just a prima facie similarity, but showing the killer had a desire to expose the abdoman for targeting/interest in that area.


and since I come to the conclusion that McKenzi was a ripper victim-I see both the ripper series and torso series (pinchin) ending at roughly the same time. another coincidence?

But McKenzie in all likelihood wasn't a Ripper victim? Also what are these so called other coincidences?

[RockySullivan]

The idea that you can come up with any completely random explanation for why the two series are so massively different in method and yet scream ‘no way’ when it comes to a few possible mutilation similarities between a couple of the victims borders on conspiracy thinking. The suggestion that one person can’t, by chance, make similar cuts to another is pathetic. Anyone who says that they are ‘certain’ of one killer is delusional. I go for the canonical five but I’m still not ‘certain’ of that.

We need a little less certainty. We need fewer people who really do think that they are Sherlock Holmes. We need fewer people who believe ‘I come to this conclusion so it must be true.”

Until someone comes up with anything approaching conclusive proof, and they categorically haven’t yet, I’ll say that Jack The Ripper wasn’t the Torso Killer. I may be wrong (an admission that some appear to be psychologically incapable of making) but I’ll take my position until such time as the ‘geniuses’ prove otherwise.

you're ignoring the point which is that both killers took the same reproductive organ, an extremely unusual trait. I'm not sure why so many of you fail to grasp this.

[FrankO]

Besides, the torso killer was not primarily an eviscerator. On the few occasions when he did eviscerate, straightforward explanations can be advanced for why he did so, in which the eviscerations don't emerge as an end in themselves.

Indeed Gareth, the only case in which we can be relatively sure the torso killer cut out organs through an opening in the abdomen, as did the Ripper in 3 out of 4 cases, is the case of Elizabeth Jackson.

[RockySullivan]

An inquest was opened by Westminster's coroner, John Troutbeck, on 8 October. It determined that the woman had been "of large stature and well-nourished", and suggested that she had been approximately 24 years old. The uterus had been removed from the body. The right arm had been severed by someone with knowledge of human anatomy, had been tourniqueted to stem blood flow, and was removed post-mortem. It was also revealed that the victim had been wearing a broché satin dress at the time of death. The dress had been manufactured in Bradford, England, from a pattern estimated as three years old. Pieces of newspaper found with the remains were from the Echo of 24 August and an issue of the Chronicle of unknown date. Although the cause of death was unknown, the victim had not suffocated or drowned; besides the uterus being absent, the left lung had severe pleurisy;[3] nothing was found to indicate that the victim had borne children; the heart was healthy and the right lung, liver, stomach, kidneys and spleen were normal. She had been dead for around six weeks to two months and had fair skin, dark hair, and was not someone who was used to manual labour

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed Gareth, the only case in which we can be relatively sure the torso killer cut out organs through an opening in the abdomen, as did the Ripper in 3 out of 4 cases, is the case of Elizabeth Jackson.

The opening in her abdomen consisting of only two "flaps", as opposed to three as per Chapman and Kelly. Not that it makes much difference when dealing with improvising killers; as I've said before, there are only so many practical ways to open an abdomen, and this "technique" could be hit upon by just about anyone. (It wasn't much of a "technique" in any case; the number, nature and size of the "flaps" diverged wildly when one considers all three cases.)

Crucially, Jackson was pregnant, with the fœtus (not just the uterus) cut out and discarded. This seems rather different in terms of motivation, method and outcome than we see with the Ripper.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

The Pinchin torso was fairly close to your scenario. PC Pennett made a pass by the arch and no torso. He went to knock up Jeremiah Hurley on that same pass and when he arrived again at the arch just short of 30 minutes later, there was a torso.

Hi Jerry

Good point. Certainly a close shave.

[Herlock Sholmes]

you're ignoring the point which is that both killers took the same reproductive organ, an extremely unusual trait. I'm not sure why so many of you fail to grasp this.

And I don’t see why you feel that because something might be termed ‘unusual’ that it’s in some way a clincher. It’s not it’s....unusual.

All the ripper victims, except one, were killed and left in the street skirts raised, on display. Torso victims weren’t. Why are you failing to grasp that?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS



Tabram and McKenzie are both ripper victims IMHO-so as far as the ripper series-I see 7 victims.

Tabram and Mackenzie:
Both unfortunates
killed in middle of the night
knife used
abdoman and or throat targeted
same geographic location
unsolved


The clincher for me is there skirts were hiked up-like chapman and eddowes

So not just a prima facie similarity, but showing the killer had a desire to expose the abdoman for targeting/interest in that area.


and since I come to the conclusion that McKenzi was a ripper victim-I see both the ripper series and torso series (pinchin) ending at roughly the same time. another coincidence?

Hi Abby,

But the methods were vastly different. I don’t think that we can say ‘well we can come up with a possible scenario to explain that away even though it makes little sense’ and yet when someone says ‘I believe that we can explain away any similarities in the mutilations’ certain people (not you) pipe up and say ‘hang on, you can’t do that. It’s against the rules of crime investigation.’

Mackenzie might have been a ripper victim but I can’t think of a good explaination as to the tentativeness of the abdominal wounds when we know that this was a well practiced killer. If the Mackenzie Murder was at a time in place of Tabram and so might have been considered a first attempt I think that I’d be more convinced. Mackenzie to Nichols would make more sense to me than Kelly to Mackenzie.

I’m certainly not certain though

[Herlock Sholmes]

An inquest was opened by Westminster's coroner, John Troutbeck, on 8 October. It determined that the woman had been "of large stature and well-nourished", and suggested that she had been approximately 24 years old. The uterus had been removed from the body. The right arm had been severed by someone with knowledge of human anatomy, had been tourniqueted to stem blood flow, and was removed post-mortem. It was also revealed that the victim had been wearing a broché satin dress at the time of death. The dress had been manufactured in Bradford, England, from a pattern estimated as three years old. Pieces of newspaper found with the remains were from the Echo of 24 August and an issue of the Chronicle of unknown date. Although the cause of death was unknown, the victim had not suffocated or drowned; besides the uterus being absent, the left lung had severe pleurisy;[3] nothing was found to indicate that the victim had borne children; the heart was healthy and the right lung, liver, stomach, kidneys and spleen were normal. She had been dead for around six weeks to two months and had fair skin, dark hair, and was not someone who was used to manual labour

Game over then.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The opening in her abdomen consisting of only two "flaps", as opposed to three as per Chapman and Kelly. Not that it makes much difference when dealing with improvising killers; as I've said before, there are only so many practical ways to open an abdomen, and this "technique" could be hit upon by just about anyone. (It wasn't much of a "technique" in any case; the number, nature and size of the "flaps" diverged wildly when one considers all three cases.)

Crucially, Jackson was pregnant, with the fœtus (not just the uterus) cut out and discarded. This seems rather different in terms of motivation, method and outcome than we see with the Ripper.

This obsession with ‘flaps’ has always surprised me Gareth. It’s as if they are seen as hieroglyphs pointing conclusively to the ripper. Cuts, knife slashes, some might be intentional, some as an accidental by-product of other actions. I’m sure that some treat this like reading tea leaves. The fact that Jackson was pregnant cannot and should not (but often is) ignored and you’re absolutely correct to keep mentioning this fact. Isnt it strange how, in this case, there are some things that it’s perfectly acceptable to ‘explain away’ but when it comes to others then you are treated like an atheist in a mosque.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

But the methods were vastly different. I don’t think that we can say ‘well we can come up with a possible scenario to explain that away even though it makes little sense’ and yet when someone says ‘I believe that we can explain away any similarities in the mutilations’ certain people (not you) pipe up and say ‘hang on, you can’t do that. It’s against the rules of crime investigation.’

Mackenzie might have been a ripper victim but I can’t think of a good explaination as to the tentativeness of the abdominal wounds when we know that this was a well practiced killer. If the Mackenzie Murder was at a time in place of Tabram and so might have been considered a first attempt I think that I’d be more convinced. Mackenzie to Nichols would make more sense to me than Kelly to Mackenzie.

I’m certainly not certain though

Hi HS
in these sorts of crimes one has to take into account unforeseen circs-like being interrupted. I see a natural escalation/progression from Millwood to Tabram all the way to Kelly.

I think the killer was interrupted with Stride (obviously) and also McKenzie.


That both torso and ripper series stopped at the same time-strikes me.

Seems to be overlooked to me-most of the talk is about the differences in when they started, overlapped etc.


But when a series (or two) end, in terms of timeframes, that's more significant-differing circumstances, killers escalation, dormant periods can be difficult to ascertain while trying to sort out re start dates-yet when a series ends there is really no doubt.


that they both end the same time is another similarity that I have trouble accepting its just another coincidence.

[Abby Normal]

This obsession with ‘flaps’ has always surprised me Gareth. It’s as if they are seen as hieroglyphs pointing conclusively to the ripper. Cuts, knife slashes, some might be intentional, some as an accidental by-product of other actions. I’m sure that some treat this like reading tea leaves. The fact that Jackson was pregnant cannot and should not (but often is) ignored and you’re absolutely correct to keep mentioning this fact. Isnt it strange how, in this case, there are some things that it’s perfectly acceptable to ‘explain away’ but when it comes to others then you are treated like an atheist in a mosque.

Hi HS and Sam
To me Jackson is the strongest link to me in terms of victim per se between the two.

Neither the ripper victims nor the torso victims seem to be of overtly sexual nature and jackson kind of exemplifies that.

I dont see a pregnant women as the typical target of an overt sexually motivated serial killer and neither torsoman nor the ripper seem like they were (because of other evidence also). another coincidence?

[RockySullivan]

Game over then.

You honestly believe two different serial killers were removing the uteri from victims in London in 1888? I don't know how you can say that with a straight face.

[RockySullivan]

The fact that Jackson was pregnant cannot and should not (but often is) ignored and you’re absolutely correct to keep mentioning this fact. Isnt it strange how, in this case, there are some things that it’s perfectly acceptable to ‘explain away’ but when it comes to others then you are treated like an atheist in a mosque.

I'll agree with you on that sholmes. But i think Jackson's abortion show's the killer was capable of performing one and that's a big clue towards his education and profession. It makes sense the guy who knows how to remove sex organs in the dark streets in minutes flat might work o rhave experience in a field that involves said organs.