Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[Joshua Rogan]

I've just come across this press report from the Star 4th Oct about where the torso was found, and don't remember seeing it posted before. It gives some idea of the layout of the foundations, and also mentions the torso was hidden behind a bit of fence leaning against the wall. If true, then it's no surprise that it might have been missed for a few weeks.

"Towards the Thames front of the site there are some underground steps. These steps lead to a door at a lower depth. An inclined plane leads to a lower level. This lower level is a vast place of arches, from which the light is partially excluded by the walls for the floors above, and is in constant shade. In one place there is a deep recess, in which, even when the sun is shining brightly outside, there is complete darkness. This leads by a dangerous way to another recess. In one corner of this furthest dark recess stands a piece of hoarding, two pieces of board held together by a cross piece, as if it had formed once part of a builder's hoarding round the building. This stands crossways against the wall, leaving a triangular space. It was within this space that the parcel containing the body was found. The devious ways which have to be taken to reach this secret spot, and the fact that this is the most secret spot on the site, lead to the conclusion that the person who placed the remains there must have been well acquainted with the place, and the deposit must have been made in the day."


Also in the same article is an intriguing suggestion;

"The body was in a condition which showed that a vain endeavor had been made to arrest putrefaction, and the idea in bringing it to the Thames Embankment was probably to cast it into the Thames, and it would most likely have been cast there three weeks ago but for the prompt discovery of the arm and the vigilance observed in all parts of the river. It is thought possible that the bundle was conveyed by the carts which enter at the side of the building and deliver materials. It is remarkable that the severed arm was found near a wharf whence wood for building is carted to places where building is being carried on."

[Elamarna]

I've just come across this press report from the Star 4th Oct about where the torso was found, and don't remember seeing it posted before. It gives some idea of the layout of the foundations, and also mentions the torso was hidden behind a bit of fence leaning against the wall. If true, then it's no surprise that it might have been missed for a few weeks.

"Towards the Thames front of the site there are some underground steps. These steps lead to a door at a lower depth. An inclined plane leads to a lower level. This lower level is a vast place of arches, from which the light is partially excluded by the walls for the floors above, and is in constant shade. In one place there is a deep recess, in which, even when the sun is shining brightly outside, there is complete darkness. This leads by a dangerous way to another recess. In one corner of this furthest dark recess stands a piece of hoarding, two pieces of board held together by a cross piece, as if it had formed once part of a builder's hoarding round the building. This stands crossways against the wall, leaving a triangular space. It was within this space that the parcel containing the body was found. The devious ways which have to be taken to reach this secret spot, and the fact that this is the most secret spot on the site, lead to the conclusion that the person who placed the remains there must have been well acquainted with the place, and the deposit must have been made in the day."


Also in the same article is an intriguing suggestion;

"The body was in a condition which showed that a vain endeavor had been made to arrest putrefaction, and the idea in bringing it to the Thames Embankment was probably to cast it into the Thames, and it would most likely have been cast there three weeks ago but for the prompt discovery of the arm and the vigilance observed in all parts of the river. It is thought possible that the bundle was conveyed by the carts which enter at the side of the building and deliver materials. It is remarkable that the severed arm was found near a wharf whence wood for building is carted to places where building is being carried on."

Nice find Joshua,

I have certainly not seen it before, maybe Jerry or Debs have.

Need to see if there is another source for this I guess, maybe look tonight.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

As it turns out, the bit about the torso being behind the piece of hoarding is also mentioned in passing by the Times 19th Oct, which I'd posted earlier in this thread (#49) without it registering.
It also may contain an explanation why none of the site workers who first discovered the torso noticed any odd smell - if the foundations smelt of damp, dead animals and sewers anyway, they may have become accustomed to the odour, but the doctors and policemen not so much.

[Elamarna]

As it turns out, the bit about the torso being behind the piece of hoarding is also mentioned in passing by the Times 19th Oct, which I'd posted earlier in this thread (#49) without it registering.
It also may contain an explanation why none of the site workers who first discovered the torso noticed any odd smell - if the foundations smelt of damp, dead animals and sewers anyway, they may have become accustomed to the odour, but the doctors and policemen not so much.

Joshua,

I certainly missed it, I piced up on the dead animals and cesspits but just missed the board.

great find.

Steve

[jerryd]

Joshua,

I certainly missed it, I piced up on the dead animals and cesspits but just missed the board.

great find.

Steve

Joshua and Steve,

I haven't seen that one. Good work on digging it up. (No pun intended)

Regarding the timber deliveries, I did a bit of research into Robert Ward and Sons on the other forum. It was at their timber wharf the arm matching this body was found. Frederick Moore is the man that fished it out of the water. He worked for Ward and Sons.

Also, regarding everyone missing the parcel in the vault. There were at least 6 witnesses that were in the vault and said it could not have been there but a few days. I feel I am in the minority when I agree with the 6 witnesses but I can see the argument for the other side as well. One man was in that corner with a parrafin lamp taking measurements and swore the parcel was not there. He mentions no hoarding, though.

Regardless, it is very nice to other other sources popping up to help us sort this all out.

[Joshua Rogan]

So Steve, do you think it's just coincidence, or could there be a connection between the dump site of the arm and the torso?

[Elamarna]

So Steve, do you think it's just coincidence, or could there be a connection between the dump site of the arm and the torso?

Joshua

I need to go and check a few things before i give a considered reply

get back ASAP


Steve

[jerryd]

So Steve, do you think it's just coincidence, or could there be a connection between the dump site of the arm and the torso?

Sorry to jump in on the question to Steve, but we don't know if the arm floated down the river to this location. The arm was found seemingly at low tide, in the mud. Dr Neville estimated the arm had been in the water about 3 days by the appearance of the limb.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Jerry,
No worries, I was just about to edit my post to say "or anyone else", so you're welcome to answer. As is anyone else.
Did your digging discover whether Robert Ward & Sons delivered any timber to Grover & Sons?

[Elamarna]

Sorry to jump in on the question to Steve, but we don't know if the arm floated down the river to this location. The arm was found seemingly at low tide, in the mud. Dr Neville estimated the arm had been in the water about 3 days by the appearance of the limb.

Jerry and Joshua,

That was one of the things i had gone off to check,

I would say that given that the arm could have floated some distance, it may well be coincidence, but if it is its a very neat one.


So basically sitting the the fence, sorry



If we had a definite link to the builders then i may jump.




Steve

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
No worries, I was just about to edit my post to say "or anyone else", so you're welcome to answer. As is anyone else.
Did your digging discover whether Robert Ward & Sons delivered any timber to Grover & Sons?

Unfortunately not. But their yard was next to a saw mill which I always thought was a great place to cut up a body.

[Elamarna]

Unfortunately not. But their yard was next to a saw mill which I always thought was a great place to cut up a body.

Not enough to get me to jump, but very interesting none the less.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Oooh, that would be perfect Jerry, if only the torsos had had their limbs taken cleanly off with a bandsaw!

[Joshua Rogan]

I've just reread Rob Clack's excellent article on the Whitehall Mystery in Ripperologist 133 and he relates the Star article which mentions the hoarding in the vault almost word for word.
Something else struck me wen reading it, apart from that. There's a bit about the arm found at Pimlico and the differences in the descriptions given by Dr Neville and Dr Hebbert. Rob points out two discrepancies;

"The report from Dr Hebbert differed in two major points from that of Dr Neville’s interview with the Evening News. Hebbert claimed that “the neat appearance of the nails, and the absence of any deformity by occupation, were against a low-class person”, where Neville claimed “...I also observed that the nails were not neatly trimmed, as a lady’s generally are.” Also, Dr Hebbert said the hairs found on the arm were “dark brown,” while Dr Neville said they were “fair.”"

However, he doesn't mention a third - and seemingly really major - difference in their descriptions.

"Hebbert believed the arm was cut off by a person who, while not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing - someone who Hebbert thought knew where the joints were and cut them regularly. The arm had been separated with seven cuts, which had evidently been done with a very sharp knife, and then the bone was sawn through."

Whereas Neville says;

"Then this is not an arm to be accounted for by a surgical amputation? No, it has not been removed skilfully enough. The dismemberment seems to have been done without any object except the removal of the arm from the shoulder, for what reason of course I cannot fathom. It certainly to me suggests murder. I cannot imagine in what other light to regard it. The muscles were clean cut through, so that the knife used must have been very sharp; and the bone was WRENCHED FROM THE SOCKET.
And how long had the arm been separated from the body? - Not above two days, I should say."

Discuss.

[jerryd]

I've just reread Rob Clack's excellent article on the Whitehall Mystery in Ripperologist 133 and he relates the Star article which mentions the hoarding in the vault almost word for word.
Something else struck me wen reading it, apart from that. There's a bit about the arm found at Pimlico and the differences in the descriptions given by Dr Neville and Dr Hebbert. Rob points out two discrepancies;

"The report from Dr Hebbert differed in two major points from that of Dr Neville’s interview with the Evening News. Hebbert claimed that “the neat appearance of the nails, and the absence of any deformity by occupation, were against a low-class person”, where Neville claimed “...I also observed that the nails were not neatly trimmed, as a lady’s generally are.” Also, Dr Hebbert said the hairs found on the arm were “dark brown,” while Dr Neville said they were “fair.”"

However, he doesn't mention a third - and seemingly really major - difference in their descriptions.

"Hebbert believed the arm was cut off by a person who, while not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing - someone who Hebbert thought knew where the joints were and cut them regularly. The arm had been separated with seven cuts, which had evidently been done with a very sharp knife, and then the bone was sawn through."

Whereas Neville says;

"Then this is not an arm to be accounted for by a surgical amputation? No, it has not been removed skilfully enough. The dismemberment seems to have been done without any object except the removal of the arm from the shoulder, for what reason of course I cannot fathom. It certainly to me suggests murder. I cannot imagine in what other light to regard it. The muscles were clean cut through, so that the knife used must have been very sharp; and the bone was WRENCHED FROM THE SOCKET.
And how long had the arm been separated from the body? - Not above two days, I should say."

Discuss.

Hi Joshua,

For now I will just say this:

Dr. Neville's observation coincides with the man that initially found the arm, Frederick Moore. Here is part of what Moore said.

....and the knuckle bone of the shoulder was protruding from the flesh about an inch or so...

That may be why Neville described it as "wrenched" from the socket. Neville does mention the word "cut" and "severed" in other reports, by the way. Keep in mind too, Neville saw the arm before it was placed in spirits. The nails and such may have appeared "rougher" because it just came out of the mud and water. The spirits may have made the hair appear lighter when Hebbert saw the arm whereas when Neville made his observation the arm just came out of the mud and may have made the hair appear darker? Bond and Hebbert saw the arm about a week later, IIRC.