Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[jerryd]

All good stuff! But you forgot to mention that the Board of Works was abolished shortly after the outrage in Miller's Court....

The LCC, which replaced the BoW, took control of power in March of 1889. The Pinchin land was still referred to as BoW land. They kept the office at Spring Gardens.

[Joshua Rogan]

All good stuff! But you forgot to mention that the Board of Works was abolished shortly after the outrage in Miller's Court....

[Elamarna]

Joshua and Steve,

If you're looking for connections to the torso sites, the strongest connection I have found and studied a bit about, is the Metropolitan Board of Works. The BoW would have overseen the construction of New Scotland yard. The BoW had a section of land next to the arches where the Pinchin Torso was found. The BoW built the three sections of embankments on the Thames. Mishter Lusk was a member of the Board of Works (Mile End vestry IIRC). The Shelley House was built on Board of Works land. The Met BoW office was near John Arnold's roost at the Charing Cross Post Office.

In fact William Tite, (Tite Street was named after him) was a member of the Board of Works and was responsible for the construction of the Chelsea Embankment. A lot of the land where the Shelley House stands was vacant embankment land before the BoW sold to private owners, such as the Shelleys, to build upon. Melville Macnaghten was living at #9 Tite Street during the ripper murders. Other familiar names to ripperologists living on Tite Street were Oscar Wilde and Frank Miles. Oscar Wilde was friends with Marie Belloc Lowndes, author of "The Lodger". Some of this last paragraph info I got from the Ripper Code, but I don't subscribe to the Miles theory.

I know I've missed something, but that's a start.

thanks jerry,

somewhere to look.

[jerryd]

Hi Steve,
Yeah, the hoarding does make it more understandable that the torso could have been overlooked for so long.

I had high hopes of a connection between the dump sites, especially when Jerry came up with the name of the timber contractor from the wharf, who also had links to Battersea. But looking at the materials used to build the NSY building, it doesn't seem so likely: the granite was from Dartmoor, shaped by prisoners;the Portland stone was from government quarries; the bricks were from Cambridgeshire and the roof tiles were slate. So not looking so promising now.
Could be a subcontractor though, so will keep looking.

Joshua and Steve,

If you're looking for connections to the torso sites, the strongest connection I have found and studied a bit about, is the Metropolitan Board of Works. The BoW would have overseen the construction of New Scotland yard. The BoW had a section of land next to the arches where the Pinchin Torso was found. The BoW built the three sections of embankments on the Thames. Mishter Lusk was a member of the Board of Works (Mile End vestry IIRC). The Shelley House was built on Board of Works land. The Met BoW office was near John Arnold's roost at the Charing Cross Post Office.

In fact William Tite, (Tite Street was named after him) was a member of the Board of Works and was responsible for the construction of the Chelsea Embankment. A lot of the land where the Shelley House stands was vacant embankment land before the BoW sold to private owners, such as the Shelleys, to build upon. Melville Macnaghten was living at #9 Tite Street during the ripper murders. Other familiar names to ripperologists living on Tite Street were Oscar Wilde and Frank Miles. Oscar Wilde was friends with Marie Belloc Lowndes, author of "The Lodger". Some of this last paragraph info I got from the Ripper Code, but I don't subscribe to the Miles theory.

I know I've missed something, but that's a start.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Steve,
Yeah, the hoarding does make it more understandable that the torso could have been overlooked for so long.

I had high hopes of a connection between the dump sites, especially when Jerry came up with the name of the timber contractor from the wharf, who also had links to Battersea. But looking at the materials used to build the NSY building, it doesn't seem so likely: the granite was from Dartmoor, shaped by prisoners;the Portland stone was from government quarries; the bricks were from Cambridgeshire and the roof tiles were slate. So not looking so promising now.
Could be a subcontractor though, so will keep looking.

[Elamarna]

Joshua,

Had a few days to think it over now, and the internal hoarding, seems the answer to why it was not seen to me.

Still can't make mind up about location of arm and if it was important or not.

Am fairly convinced all parts, torso, leg and arm were disposed of at same time, there was no secondary placement of the leg for instance.
The physical evidence: state of decay, blackening of the wall all lead me to the conclusion that the torso was in place well before it was actually found.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Cheers JD. I've just checked "a system of legal Medecine" and there Hebbert describes the head and neck of the humerus being exposed, so looks like the "sawn" comment I picked up on is wrong.
Which means Neville and Hebbert agree after all....except for the other two issues, but you raise some good points about those. I've no idea whether the preservation process would affect hair colour, but could be a result of that. Hebbert described the hairs as dark, whereas Neville said fair, so perhaps a week out of sunlight may have made a difference? Or maybe just the lighting conditions under which each viewed the arm.

[jerryd]

I've just reread Rob Clack's excellent article on the Whitehall Mystery in Ripperologist 133 and he relates the Star article which mentions the hoarding in the vault almost word for word.
Something else struck me wen reading it, apart from that. There's a bit about the arm found at Pimlico and the differences in the descriptions given by Dr Neville and Dr Hebbert. Rob points out two discrepancies;

"The report from Dr Hebbert differed in two major points from that of Dr Neville’s interview with the Evening News. Hebbert claimed that “the neat appearance of the nails, and the absence of any deformity by occupation, were against a low-class person”, where Neville claimed “...I also observed that the nails were not neatly trimmed, as a lady’s generally are.” Also, Dr Hebbert said the hairs found on the arm were “dark brown,” while Dr Neville said they were “fair.”"

However, he doesn't mention a third - and seemingly really major - difference in their descriptions.

"Hebbert believed the arm was cut off by a person who, while not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing - someone who Hebbert thought knew where the joints were and cut them regularly. The arm had been separated with seven cuts, which had evidently been done with a very sharp knife, and then the bone was sawn through."

Whereas Neville says;

"Then this is not an arm to be accounted for by a surgical amputation? No, it has not been removed skilfully enough. The dismemberment seems to have been done without any object except the removal of the arm from the shoulder, for what reason of course I cannot fathom. It certainly to me suggests murder. I cannot imagine in what other light to regard it. The muscles were clean cut through, so that the knife used must have been very sharp; and the bone was WRENCHED FROM THE SOCKET.
And how long had the arm been separated from the body? - Not above two days, I should say."

Discuss.

Hi Joshua,

For now I will just say this:

Dr. Neville's observation coincides with the man that initially found the arm, Frederick Moore. Here is part of what Moore said.

....and the knuckle bone of the shoulder was protruding from the flesh about an inch or so...

That may be why Neville described it as "wrenched" from the socket. Neville does mention the word "cut" and "severed" in other reports, by the way. Keep in mind too, Neville saw the arm before it was placed in spirits. The nails and such may have appeared "rougher" because it just came out of the mud and water. The spirits may have made the hair appear lighter when Hebbert saw the arm whereas when Neville made his observation the arm just came out of the mud and may have made the hair appear darker? Bond and Hebbert saw the arm about a week later, IIRC.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've just reread Rob Clack's excellent article on the Whitehall Mystery in Ripperologist 133 and he relates the Star article which mentions the hoarding in the vault almost word for word.
Something else struck me wen reading it, apart from that. There's a bit about the arm found at Pimlico and the differences in the descriptions given by Dr Neville and Dr Hebbert. Rob points out two discrepancies;

"The report from Dr Hebbert differed in two major points from that of Dr Neville’s interview with the Evening News. Hebbert claimed that “the neat appearance of the nails, and the absence of any deformity by occupation, were against a low-class person”, where Neville claimed “...I also observed that the nails were not neatly trimmed, as a lady’s generally are.” Also, Dr Hebbert said the hairs found on the arm were “dark brown,” while Dr Neville said they were “fair.”"

However, he doesn't mention a third - and seemingly really major - difference in their descriptions.

"Hebbert believed the arm was cut off by a person who, while not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing - someone who Hebbert thought knew where the joints were and cut them regularly. The arm had been separated with seven cuts, which had evidently been done with a very sharp knife, and then the bone was sawn through."

Whereas Neville says;

"Then this is not an arm to be accounted for by a surgical amputation? No, it has not been removed skilfully enough. The dismemberment seems to have been done without any object except the removal of the arm from the shoulder, for what reason of course I cannot fathom. It certainly to me suggests murder. I cannot imagine in what other light to regard it. The muscles were clean cut through, so that the knife used must have been very sharp; and the bone was WRENCHED FROM THE SOCKET.
And how long had the arm been separated from the body? - Not above two days, I should say."

Discuss.

[Joshua Rogan]

Oooh, that would be perfect Jerry, if only the torsos had had their limbs taken cleanly off with a bandsaw!

[Elamarna]

Unfortunately not. But their yard was next to a saw mill which I always thought was a great place to cut up a body.

Not enough to get me to jump, but very interesting none the less.


Steve

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
No worries, I was just about to edit my post to say "or anyone else", so you're welcome to answer. As is anyone else.
Did your digging discover whether Robert Ward & Sons delivered any timber to Grover & Sons?

Unfortunately not. But their yard was next to a saw mill which I always thought was a great place to cut up a body.

[Elamarna]

Sorry to jump in on the question to Steve, but we don't know if the arm floated down the river to this location. The arm was found seemingly at low tide, in the mud. Dr Neville estimated the arm had been in the water about 3 days by the appearance of the limb.

Jerry and Joshua,

That was one of the things i had gone off to check,

I would say that given that the arm could have floated some distance, it may well be coincidence, but if it is its a very neat one.


So basically sitting the the fence, sorry



If we had a definite link to the builders then i may jump.




Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Jerry,
No worries, I was just about to edit my post to say "or anyone else", so you're welcome to answer. As is anyone else.
Did your digging discover whether Robert Ward & Sons delivered any timber to Grover & Sons?

[jerryd]

So Steve, do you think it's just coincidence, or could there be a connection between the dump site of the arm and the torso?

Sorry to jump in on the question to Steve, but we don't know if the arm floated down the river to this location. The arm was found seemingly at low tide, in the mud. Dr Neville estimated the arm had been in the water about 3 days by the appearance of the limb.