Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[Elamarna]

Really interesting thread Steve. Hope it attracts more constructive comments from readers. As far as you are aware the actual police minutes of the inquest are lost? If so it is too bad.

As to the staining on the wall, while it may very well be from the contents in the parcel which are slowly decomposing over time, it is also likely the vault's walls were stained already from other causes. Especially if the package was giving off no odors, suggesting that the remains were kept somewhere for awhile where they gave off the natural gases and chemicals of decomposition.

Given the situation, it looks like whoever deposited the package was hoping that it would remain unnoticed, and that the workers would eventually brick it up in the vault. But that is only my opinion.

Jeff

hi Jeff,

yes it is certainly possible the parcel was kept somewhere else, however apply what is a masking fluid to the tissue would not prevent all smell, particularly over an extended period, something Jerry commented on.
Therefore it must be kept somewhere where no one maybe able to smell anything, however that is another story.

The Torso is very badly decomposed according to some reports, it is obviously still leaking, however no trace of any such is seen over the weekend outside or in the vault, of course it is possible that the person responsible cleaned up, but how easy would that be in vault.

With regards to the wall staining, you may be right about general staining, however the Police and Bond both say the wall was stained black where the parcel had been laid against it.

I think your conclusion is probably correct, it is certainly hidden.

Steve

Steve

[RockySullivan]

What about the buried parts? Would the workers have noticed the ground had been disturbed?

[Joshua Rogan]

Wasn't the leg said to be buried under the spoil heap from a trench that had been dug to lay drains? Perhaps indicating that it was originally just laid on the ground in the vault like the torso, and inadvertently covered by the loose earth from the trench at a later time.

[Elamarna]

hi

yes the later found body part was buried under material that had been already excavated. Of course it was very dark and there was no active work going on in the basement at that point, so it is easy to understand how it could be missed.

Steve

[jerryd]

hi

yes the later found body part was buried under material that had been already excavated. Of course it was very dark and there was no active work going on in the basement at that point, so it is easy to understand how it could be missed.

Steve

Hi Steve,

According to one report, the leg was found only a yard and a half from where the body was discovered. The police were supposed to have search the whole ground after the torso discovery.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

According to one report, the leg was found only a yard and a half from where the body was discovered. The police were supposed to have search the whole ground after the torso discovery.

Hi Jerry

we have 3 options Ii guess:

1.The police missed the leg, or it was hidden very well.

2. Someone went back and put it in place in an area which had already been searched, highly risky I would think, but certainly possible.

3. That report is inaccurate.

Really not sure which way to go on that.


Steve

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry

we have 3 options Ii guess:

1.The police missed the leg, or it was hidden very well.

2. Someone went back and put it in place in an area which had already been searched, highly risky I would think, but certainly possible.

3. That report is inaccurate.

Really not sure which way to go on that.


Steve

Thanks Steve,

The interesting point about the leg, foot and torso are the stages of decomposition. The torso and foot were in advanced stages of decomposition(by appearance) but the leg had an appearance of being preserved.

The remark in the paper eluded to your #2 statement and agreed with you that it would have been a tough task given the security of the vault after the discovery of the torso.

[Joshua Rogan]

Jerry, do you know if the foot and leg were still attached to each other when found?

[jerryd]

Jerry, do you know if the foot and leg were still attached to each other when found?

Hi Joshua,

Good question. I always thought the foot was attached to the leg until very recently I read a news report that stated the foot was found after the leg was conveyed to Millbank; meaning it was separated from the leg.

If the foot was cut off from the leg, it brings up a question in my mind. Why? It seems like extra work since the leg was already cut off from the knee down presumably to aid in transportation. What purpose would cutting the foot off serve? Debs may be able to shed more light on this, though?

[jerryd]

I was wrong about the leg being conveyed to Millbank before the discovery of the foot. However, the foot was found spearately after the leg according to the Echo report.

[Joshua Rogan]

Mmm, I'd always assumed they were attached, until your post about the seemingly different decomposition.
I've done a quick search (far from exhaustive) and have only found one report that says the foot was found later on the same day (the Echo 17th Oct). All the rest seem to say that after the leg was found by the concerned civilian and his terrier, the police brought in the bloodhounds and searched the entire site (including draining the well to search that) but didn't find anything further.
Also there's no mention of cuts to the ankle by Hibbert in A System of Legal Medecine, only to ones separating the lower leg for the thigh. And I'm sure he or Bond would have mentioned them being separate if they were not still attached.
So I would presume the Echo report was a mistake, unless you or Debs know of any further info?

Echo 17th Oct 1888

"The leg appeared to be enveloped in a portion of stocking, but this, on subsequent examination, was, it is said, proved to be of a texture somewhat similar to that in which the trunk was carefully enclosed. Dr. Bond, the Divisional Surgeon, was sent for immediately, and the leg was handed over to his care, to be compared in due course with the other portion of the body, which still lies at the Millbank-street Mortuary. The dog was again set to work in the vault, and one of the workmen told our reporter, succeeded in unearthing another fragment of a human frame. This is described as a portion of foot, and lay a few feet from where the body was found. With regard to this the police are extremely reticent. They refuse to satisfy any inquiries or to describe the second discovery. "

Edit: Ah, I see your report was the Echo, too.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Irish Times 18th Oct says this;

"Dr. Bond was summoned immediately, and after examination stated that it was the left foot and part of the leg of a finely-developed woman"

[Joshua Rogan]

It also says this about the state of decomposition;

"A portion of the stocking was stated to have been found upon the leg, but this was not so. What appeared to be a thin covering was the skin which was peeling off the flesh."

And

"Examination proved it to be portion of a human leg, in which decomposition was far advanced"

[jerryd]

JR,

Same Echo issue, yes.

Also,

St James Gazette
October 23, 1888

Dr Bond said he was called on the 17th inst, by Sergeant Rose, to Whitehall, where he found a leg and foot which he judged had been in the vault for several weeks. The foot was in an advanced stage of decomposition, but the leg was in a wonderful state of preservation. The leg had been very cleverly disarticulated, and corresponded in every way with the trunk which he has previously examined.

Hard to tell from this one if they were separate or not. I think, IIRC, the leg was situated in the soil such that it was not exposed to air as much as the foot. I believe the foot had mold starting in on it too.

[Debra A]

Hi all

I believe the lower leg and foot were still attached to each other; the division being at the knee as Joshua mentioned. I am certain Dr Hebbert would have described the division of the ankle, had there been one.
I think it was particularly the sole of the foot that was much decomposed and the toe nails but the skin of the leg was described as being not too much altered in colour by decomposition. Perhaps the leg got buried with the sole of the foot upwards towards the surface and was not fully covered by the earth? It my have been moved along in the earth mound from it's original position on the surface, rather than the earth being piled completely on top of it when the drainage was dug, although that would mean police didn't do such a good job of searching the vault initially.