Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra! I'd not heard of Lily Vass before, but a quick google brought up this thread on the JTRForums;

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19769

That report of the Lily id is from the 8th Oct, whereas the one I found was from 30th, so can't be an early report. It could be a garbled re-reporting of it though. Or a completely separate id attempt.

I too read a news report (can't find it now, I really should make more notes) that mentioned possible scarring on one breast, but went on to say something like 'or a peculiarity of decomposition'. So it may not necessarily be the quality of the photo (or lack of) - the torso was said to be far gone in decomposition and full of maggots. Also the skin peeling off of the foot was mistaken for a piece of stocking by the finders, so not easy to identify even in the flesh, as it were. But of course, only seeing a photo would make it even harder.

You could be right, Joshua.
There are fuller reports about the funeral in other papers and dated around the same time of 30th Oct and they say that 'among' the people who visited the mortuary had been an elderly woman who thought it was her daughter, missing since August. I was looking at it from the perspective that the reporters may be just reporting back on what identifications had taken place since the torso found, now the remains were to be buried, and Lilly Vass' mother was definitely one of the people who visited the mortuary to view the remains she thought may be her daughter.
It's quite possible it refers to an un-named woman though.

[Debra A]

I just saw that the mortuary identification had been a recent one when the report was published on the 30th Oct/beginning of November so looks like my idea is a duffer; unless Lilly Vass' mother hadn't the courage to look at the actual remains before that day but had only looked at the clothing and photograph previously but plucked up the courage to look at the actual remains because it was her final chance?

[Joshua Rogan]

I just saw that the mortuary identification had been a recent one when the report was published on the 30th Oct/beginning of November so looks like my idea is a duffer; unless Lilly Vass' mother hadn't the courage to look at the actual remains before that day but had only looked at the clothing and photograph previously but plucked up the courage to look at the actual remains because it was her final chance?

That makes a lot of sense.
On the other hand, the report of the id I posted said an 'old woman'....if Lily was only 17 or 18, would her mum be 'old'? Not impossible, I guess. Who knows?

Happily for Lily and her mum (however old), she turned out not to be the victim.

[Joshua Rogan]

http://www.ripperologist.biz/pdf/ripperologist133.pdf

Thanks Jerry! And thanks Rob for the sketch!

[Joshua Rogan]

The station was open. Here is a bit more info on the underground tunnels. Maybe you have seen this as you mentioned access from Parliament?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....use#post291635 (post #97)

Good thread. I see you've already looked into the Wainwright murder

[jerryd]

Good thread. I see you've already looked into the Wainwright murder

We did have a nice discussion on that thread. A lot of helpful information came out. Yes, I have, and still am, researching the Wainwrights. Mainly Thomas and William. I see you started a Wainwright thread, which I hope to jump in on sometime soon.

As far as this discussion, I concur with Steve that there are inconsistencies in testimony. It's hard to believe several of the workmen state they are positive the body was not in the spot until very recently before the discovery. Dr. Bond boldly states they were mistaken. In the thread on the jtrforum that you refer to, Debs and I discussed this issue. She raised many good points in support of Dr. Bond and Hebbert's idea that the body had been there for a lot longer period of time. Deep down I am still having trouble accepting their (Bond and Hebbert) conclusions. Who am I to question the medical experts of the day, though?

Incidentally, Dr. Bond was present at the Wainwright case as well.

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't know if it was brought up in the other thread (I'm still reading through it) so I don't know if this was mentioned, but I noticed that Dr Neville said of the arm (according to the Rob C article) the following;

"Was there anything to indicate whether the arm was that of a woman of refinement, or the reverse? - Well, I should say not a refined woman, for the nails were dirty.
That might be due to immersion in the dirty water of the river? - Certainly; but I also observed that the nails were not neatly trimmed, as a lady’s generally are."

Whereas Dr Hebbert said the opposite;

"The wrist is small, the hands long, with tapering fingers; the nails are small, flat, and well formed, and have been carefully trimmed"

Can they have had such opposing views of the nails? Or would Dr Neville have trimmed them in the course of his examination - in which case, did he not mention that to Hebbert and Bond?

[RockySullivan]

In response to Josh's post about the workman and the men with the barrow...in Trow's book there is a part about one of the workers being there on their day off. Does anyone have this?

[Joshua Rogan]

The station was open. Here is a bit more info on the underground tunnels. Maybe you have seen this as you mentioned access from Parliament?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....use#post291635 (post #97)

I got the info about the tunnel from a website about the opera house, can't find the link, but it might be one of the ones you also found.
This map from 1895 shows a subway running from the Houses of Parliament past the St Stephen's Club and the station to Westminster Pier. I think the station would have given access to the opera house, could this be the tunnel? If so, any potential body dumper would have to go through the station and all the subsequent foundations before even getting to the New Scotland Yard vaults. On the other hand, perhaps they entered the tunnel from the riverside?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.5016&lon=-0.1255&layers=163

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Rocky,
I've not read Trow's book, but the article I posted said "He happened to be in Cannon row on the Saturday before the body was found, and at an hour when the place was practically deserted". Might Trow have interpreted that as meaning "on his day off"?

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,
I've not read Trow's book, but the article I posted said "He happened to be in Cannon row on the Saturday before the body was found, and at an hour when the place was practically deserted". Might Trow have interpreted that as meaning "on his day off"?

I think in the book it said the worker was questioned and admitted to being their when he wasn't working. But it;s been a awhile e since I read it I know I've brought it up on here before

[Elamarna]

Hi

know its been a few weeks since we were on this thread, but i was doing some reading last night, and came across something I was not aware of with regards to the buried leg. Sure others must be aware of this but some may not be.

The point was that it was so close to the main Torso part why had it not been found when the Police searched?
Well of course it was buried under soil, but apparently was only discovered because a dog was taken into the vaults to search for other parts( not by the police) and it detected the leg by smell.

Interesting

steve

[jerryd]

Hi

know its been a few weeks since we were on this thread, but i was doing some reading last night, and came across something I was not aware of with regards to the buried leg. Sure others must be aware of this but some may not be.

The point was that it was so close to the main Torso part why had it not been found when the Police searched?
Well of course it was buried under soil, but apparently was only discovered because a dog was taken into the vaults to search for other parts( not by the police) and it detected the leg by smell.

Interesting

steve

Hi Steve,

It was the second instance that a journalist injected themselves into the search and discovery of torso parts. Claude Mellor's discovery of Elizabeth Jackson's thigh at the Shelley estate was the other.

A little info on William Angle posted by Debs. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19316

I too find it interesting the leg was found very near the torso. I want to say, IIRC, it was found within a few feet of the torso. I seem to also recall the police were told to search the vault immediately after the torso find and found nothing at that time.

[Debra A]

The point was that it was so close to the main Torso part why had it not been found when the Police searched?
Well of course it was buried under soil, but apparently was only discovered because a dog was taken into the vaults to search for other parts( not by the police) and it detected the leg by smell.

Interesting

steve

Hi Steve,

Just for interest--as well as Jerry's link to the stuff on Angle, (thanks Jerry) there is also a probable photograph of Smoker, the dog who found the leg, here:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=224656

Debs

[Elamarna]

Hi Deb and Jerry,

Thanks for the links.

it makes me think that the leg was there all the time, just very well concealed, if it took the dog to locate it, obviously the smell was not enough for people to detect..

I also saw that Bond changed his mind about how long the torso had been there, after reexamination of the site when the leg was found and went from a few days to several weeks.

I am really inclined to believe that the workman either deliberately lied about it not being there on the Saturday or they just did not see it as it was so dark, which i think is the more obvious answer.

many thanks again


steve