Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[Joshua Rogan]

Here's Hibbert's notes from A System of Legal Medecine on the leg and foot;

"A fortnight after this a left leg and foot were found. The skin was incrusted with earth, and partly covered with mold. The cuticle of the sole of the foot and toes, with the nails, had nearly separated. The nails were well shaped and properly trimmed. The skin of the leg was fair and not much altered by decomposition.
The limb had been separated from the thigh at the knee-joint, the patella being absent. The incision had clean and well-defined edges, and the joint exactly opened.
The length of the leg was 17 1/2 in ; the circumference of the calf, 14in ; ankle, 8 1/2 in ; length of foot, 9 1/2 in. On the outside of the leg was a dark purple mark the size of a shilling, and the tissue beneath contained clotted blood. A small but similar mark was on the inside of the leg.
The length and size of the leg and foot pointed to it being part of the same body. The marks were ante-mortem bruising. The date of death was from six weeks to two months previously.
The remains showed various kinds of putrefaction: the arm had been in the water, the trunk exposed to the air, and the leg buried."

[jerryd]

Here's Hibbert's notes from A System of Legal Medecine on the leg and foot;

"A fortnight after this a left leg and foot were found. The skin was incrusted with earth, and partly covered with mold. The cuticle of the sole of the foot and toes, with the nails, had nearly separated. The nails were well shaped and properly trimmed. The skin of the leg was fair and not much altered by decomposition.
The limb had been separated from the thigh at the knee-joint, the patella being absent. The incision had clean and well-defined edges, and the joint exactly opened.
The length of the leg was 17 1/2 in ; the circumference of the calf, 14in ; ankle, 8 1/2 in ; length of foot, 9 1/2 in. On the outside of the leg was a dark purple mark the size of a shilling, and the tissue beneath contained clotted blood. A small but similar mark was on the inside of the leg.
The length and size of the leg and foot pointed to it being part of the same body. The marks were ante-mortem bruising. The date of death was from six weeks to two months previously.
The remains showed various kinds of putrefaction: the arm had been in the water, the trunk exposed to the air, and the leg buried."

Almost had to be the foot was attached and the difference in putrefaction due to the way it was buried. Sole up as Debs points out makes a lot of sense to me.

[Joshua Rogan]

Apparently, according to this snippet from The Star 30th Oct, a photo of the remains once existed!

"The Whitehall Remains Buried."
"To-day the remains of the body found recently at Whitehall were interred at Woking. They were removed from the mortuary in Millbank-street, Westminster, where they have been lying to await identification, to Wallis's-yard Workhouse, and placed in a coffin. Among the persons who called yesterday at the mortuary was an old woman, who thought she recognised in the photograph of the remains some trace of her daughter, who has been missing since August, but she could not be positive."

[Joshua Rogan]

More info on the vault and why the workmen might not have noticed it's presence, from The Times, 19th Oct;


"Mr. Bond has given his opinion that the leg just found belonged to the body and the arm already discovered, as it matches them. The period fixed for its having been underground, some six weeks, corresponds to the condition of the arm of the body. The suggestion has been raised that the leg has been buried since the discovery of the body; but as the place has been under constant police guard this is impossible. Moreover, it was seen that the earth was in the same condition as it was when the body was found 16 days ago, and the opinion is confirmed that the body itself must have lain there more than the days declared by the men. It is to be remembered that even when it was discovered it was not by the smell, for that was altogether unnoticed, and it is easy to account for the non-observance of any smell by the workmen when it is brought to mind that in such places deserted and starved animals frequently crawl to die, and, moreover, in the excavations of old foundations like those about Westminster there are frequently cesspools, which are all taken as a matter of course. A board leaning across the angle in the wall in which the body was found would have effectually concealed the parcel altogether, and it would not now have been brought to light but for the fact that some lost clothes were thought to have been discovered by an accidental survey of the dark recess. Thus the men may have given honest testimony, to the best of their belief, in saying that the parcel was not there on the last Friday and Saturday in September, the fact being that they had not observed it, and anyone who has seen the place can bear testimony that it would be easy to overlook anything so hidden in that darkest recess of a dark vault."

[RockySullivan]

Apparently, according to this snippet from The Star 30th Oct, a photo of the remains once existed!

"The Whitehall Remains Buried."
"To-day the remains of the body found recently at Whitehall were interred at Woking. They were removed from the mortuary in Millbank-street, Westminster, where they have been lying to await identification, to Wallis's-yard Workhouse, and placed in a coffin. Among the persons who called yesterday at the mortuary was an old woman, who thought she recognised in the photograph of the remains some trace of her daughter, who has been missing since August, but she could not be positive."

Nice catch man! Any follow up to this? It makes sense a victims family would recongize the clothes, which is why it was strange the killer dumped the remains in their clothes...like the LE Fisher undies

[jerryd]

More info on the vault and why the workmen might not have noticed it's presence, from The Times, 19th Oct;


"Mr. Bond has given his opinion that the leg just found belonged to the body and the arm already discovered, as it matches them. The period fixed for its having been underground, some six weeks, corresponds to the condition of the arm of the body. The suggestion has been raised that the leg has been buried since the discovery of the body; but as the place has been under constant police guard this is impossible. Moreover, it was seen that the earth was in the same condition as it was when the body was found 16 days ago, and the opinion is confirmed that the body itself must have lain there more than the days declared by the men. It is to be remembered that even when it was discovered it was not by the smell, for that was altogether unnoticed, and it is easy to account for the non-observance of any smell by the workmen when it is brought to mind that in such places deserted and starved animals frequently crawl to die, and, moreover, in the excavations of old foundations like those about Westminster there are frequently cesspools, which are all taken as a matter of course. A board leaning across the angle in the wall in which the body was found would have effectually concealed the parcel altogether, and it would not now have been brought to light but for the fact that some lost clothes were thought to have been discovered by an accidental survey of the dark recess. Thus the men may have given honest testimony, to the best of their belief, in saying that the parcel was not there on the last Friday and Saturday in September, the fact being that they had not observed it, and anyone who has seen the place can bear testimony that it would be easy to overlook anything so hidden in that darkest recess of a dark vault."

JR,

The testimony of William Brown is what baffles me regarding when the torso was in place. On September 22nd he was charged with making a ground plan of the vaults and roads leading to the vaults. He was in the exact corner where the torso was deposited on that day [Sept 22nd] making measurements with the aid of a paraffin lamp and doesn't recall seeing the body.

Morning Advertiser, 23 October 1888 [Inquest as reported by the MA]

William Brown was the first witness called. He stated, in reply to questions from the coroner, that on the 22nd ult., when engaged with two others in making out the quantities of completed work, he visited the vault where the remains were found subsequently, and in the particular corner, though he made measurements, he did not notice anything particular or observe that the earth had been disturbed. If there had been a parcel there at the time he must have trod upon it. Light was afforded by a paraffin lamp, and the trench in the vault to which frequent reference had been made was dry so far back as the middle of June. He had made a ground plan of the several vaults and of the road leading to them. He saw, on Tuesday, the vault after the discovery of the remains, when the earth was lower in the corner than in the other parts.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hmmm....here's the Times' report of his inquest testimony from the 23rd;

"The first witness called on this occasion was Mr. William Brown, of Hornsey, a builder, foreman for Messrs. Grover, the contractors of the new building. He stated that he was engaged on the works at the Victoria Embankment, and that he had on Friday, the 28th ult., to go into the place where the body was found on the 2d inst. He was down there measuring up for the surveyors on Friday, the 28th of September, and had a light there. If the parcel had been there on that Friday he thought he must have trodden upon it. The premises were left after the work was finished each day without any watchman. He did not examine the recess. The body might have been in the corner without his seeing it."

[Joshua Rogan]

Nice catch man! Any follow up to this? It makes sense a victims family would recongize the clothes, which is why it was strange the killer dumped the remains in their clothes...like the LE Fisher undies

That's all I've found so far. It would have been good if they'd given the old woman's name, then we might have a possible name for the victim.
There's something inexpressibly sad about viewing a photo of a torso and thinking it might be your daughter...

As for the leaving the victim in their own clothes, that says to me that they didn't have any connection to the killer/dismemberer, so identifying the victim wouldn't lead police to his door. Or he just wasn't thinking straight.

[jerryd]

I thought this sketch would be of help. I must thank Rob Clack and his article in Ripperologist 133 about the Whitehall Torso (an excellent, informative article by the way) for the reference to the Evening News where this sketch is located. I downloaded this from that newspaper.

The hoarding was stated to be about 7 feet in height. This gives an idea of the difficulty involved in getting the trunk of a body and a leg over the hoarding. In addition, the "depositor" of the body parts must have had a tool, such as a shovel, to dig down 5" to 6" to bury the leg. This leads me to believe he had help or made a couple of trips into the vault with the parts.

The other option to gain entry into the vault mentioned is the gate at Cannon Row with the "secret cord" that only the workers knew about.

I suggest another possibility of access to the vault, not mentioned by police or press, is the underground tunnel that led to the site from the Westminster Bridge Station that was completed during the building of the National Opera House some years before.

London Evening News October 3, 1888

[Debra A]

That's all I've found so far. It would have been good if they'd given the old woman's name, then we might have a possible name for the victim.
There's something inexpressibly sad about viewing a photo of a torso and thinking it might be your daughter...

As for the leaving the victim in their own clothes, that says to me that they didn't have any connection to the killer/dismemberer, so identifying the victim wouldn't lead police to his door. Or he just wasn't thinking straight.

It could be an early report of the possible ID as Lily Vass by her mother. Lilly Vass was alive and well after in the 1891 and also married sfter 1888. This research was done a few years ago but Bruce Robinson repeated this ID story in his book 'They all love Jack', without knowing this had been researched and Lily Vass traced in the records after 1888.

I think there was also one other possible ID mentioned but I forget the name now.

Re, the photograph-the body was supposed to have been propped up on a barrel and box so that the full extent of the height and limb length could be appreciated. One newspaper reporter who saw the photographs commented that he expected they would be reproduced in some form in the illustrated papers. alluding to the fact they traded on the gruesomeness of such things
.
The same journalist also commented that going by the photograph, identification should be easy because the victim had obviously had breast surgery. He had mistaken the deep indents of the string that had been used to wrap the torso parcel as scars from an op.
I think that also proves how difficult it is to try and determine what is presented in photographs like the MJK crime scene. Even with a first generation print a journalist misinterpreted what he saw in the Whitehall case simply because of the quality of the pic.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Debra! I'd not heard of Lily Vass before, but a quick google brought up this thread on the JTRForums;

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19769

That report of the Lily id is from the 8th Oct, whereas the one I found was from 30th, so can't be an early report. It could be a garbled re-reporting of it though. Or a completely separate id attempt.

I too read a news report (can't find it now, I really should make more notes) that mentioned possible scarring on one breast, but went on to say something like 'or a peculiarity of decomposition'. So it may not necessarily be the quality of the photo (or lack of) - the torso was said to be far gone in decomposition and full of maggots. Also the skin peeling off of the foot was mistaken for a piece of stocking by the finders, so not easy to identify even in the flesh, as it were. But of course, only seeing a photo would make it even harder.

[Joshua Rogan]

I thought this sketch would be of help. I must thank Rob Clack and his article in Ripperologist 133 about the Whitehall Torso (an excellent, informative article by the way) for the reference to the Evening News where this sketch is located. I downloaded this from that newspaper.

Thanks Jerry, good find. The sketch gives a rough idea whereabouts the torso was found, but I was hoping it would give a little more detail about the maze-like layout of the foundations themselves. Ah well. I think I saw another report that said it had a sketch, here in the press reports section. Sadly the pic itself isn't on the site, but if I can find it again it would be good to download that too and see if there's any extra info.
Do you have a link to the Ripperologist article? I don't seem to be able to download it.

The hoarding was stated to be about 7 feet in height. This gives an idea of the difficulty involved in getting the trunk of a body and a leg over the hoarding. In addition, the "depositor" of the body parts must have had a tool, such as a shovel, to dig down 5" to 6" to bury the leg. This leads me to believe he had help or made a couple of trips into the vault with the parts.

The other option to gain entry into the vault mentioned is the gate at Cannon Row with the "secret cord" that only the workers knew about.

I originally thought the leg was buried unnoticed by waste soil when the trench was dug, but apparently that was dug as early as mid June, so unlikely. Is it possible that the depositor broke into the shed where tools were stored to find a shovel, thus inadvertently leading the workmen to subsequently hide their tools in the very vault where the torso was dumped? Or is that too coincidental?

I read that the hoarding was increased in height by 3 feet after the finding of the torso, making it impossible to scale. But I'm not sure if the 7 feet you mention is the before or after height. Nevertheless, there are a couple of reports that some men were seen to climb over it and open the gate;

Daily News 16 Oct
"The police are said to be in possession of what is likely to prove an important piece of evidence in connection with the discovery of the mutilated body in a cell of the new police buildings at Westminster. It has been supplied by an inhabitant of Llanelly, South Wales. He happened to be in Cannon row on the Saturday before the body was found, and at an hour when the place was practically deserted. His attention was directed to a man who climbed over a hoarding into the ground whereon the new police building is being erected, and where afterwards the body was discovered. Two other men who were with him had a barrow on which was a bundle. The whole proceeding struck the observer as being strange, and afterwards, when the remains were found, he handed in his information, and also a description of the man. The result is that a workman has since been interviewed in the vicinity, who admits having been on the spot on the day in question, though his business there is not very clear. Beyond this the police, it is said, have no clue."

However, this was discounted shortly after;

Evening News 17th Oct
"The information from a person at Llanelly, South Wales, to the effect that on Saturday before the discovery at Whitehall he saw a man climb the railings, other men, with a truck on which was a bag being in waiting, has been investigated by the detective officers who have the case in hand with the result that the incident has been ascertained to have no connection with the placing of the trunk in the vault. A workman got over the railings in Cannon-row to open a door which was fastened from the inside, so as to enable another man to carry in a bag of sand which was on the truck. Inspector Marshall and Sergeant Rose are pursuing their inquiries in the neighbourhood of Pimlico. A theory has been advanced that the murdered woman was a foreign unfortunate."

I suggest another possibility of access to the vault, not mentioned by police or press, is the underground tunnel that led to the site from the Westminster Bridge Station that was completed during the building of the National Opera House some years before.

Yes, that's an intriguing possibility. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that the tunnel also connected to the Houses of Parliament. Do you know if the station was open at that time, or still under construction?

[jerryd]

The station was open. Here is a bit more info on the underground tunnels. Maybe you have seen this as you mentioned access from Parliament?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....use#post291635 (post #97)

[jerryd]

Do you have a link to the Ripperologist article? I don't seem to be able to download it.

http://www.ripperologist.biz/pdf/ripperologist133.pdf

[jerryd]

Thanks Jerry, good find.

The sketch is in Rob's Rip article, so thank him.