Torso Murders

[Abby Normal]

You'll pardon my ignorance, I pray, but how can you be certain that a murder has taken place without knowing how the victim died? I can think of some cases (the Green Bicycle affair, for instance), where the question couldn't be answered for sure even knowing exactly how the victim died.

Hi Ginger

A body is found decomposed (or burned or in a river)so bad they cant determine specific cause of death. duck tape or other ligatures are found near the body and/or other evidence of foul play. what does common sense tell you what happened?

and we are not in a court of law here. another point a couple on here are struggling with.

Look at the whole circumstances of the torso victims, and what are the viable alternatives if you don't think they were murdered. Do any alternatives make sense and seem more likely?

also keep in mind three out of the seven torso victims the coroners jury reached a verdict of murder. another point on here a couple seem to ignore. and the rest that weren't are linked by sig/MO.

[Abby Normal]

The only thing that can be comprehended, is that if you had a brain you would be dangerous. shakehead:

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

if you had brain you would still be a moron.

last response wasted on you, master detective

[Pierre]

Hey fish
Just throwing some ideas around:

If torso man and the ripper were the same, perhaps he started killing on the streets to heighten the pleasure? Perhaps tabram(or Millwood) were his trigger event for killing on the streets. As in it wasn't really planned, but after it happened he liked it and continued, as well as luring back to his torso man bolt hole. And/or the ripper victims wouldn't go back with him to his place.

I don't know, just kicking around ideas.

Or avoiding recognition in the West End.

Regards, Pierre

[jerryd]

Dr Phillips gave his opinion on cause of death for the Pinchin torso. He stated loss of blood. He also stated it was not loss of blood in the stomach or lungs. His supposition was there was a previous cut in the neck that was hidden by the head being cut off. The Pinchin torso also had severe bruising caused before death but very recent. Some bruises on the back indicated the victim may have been kicked. There were also bruises on both arms suggesting a tight grasp. The backs of both forearms and hands were heavily bruised. This all suggests to me a severe beating.

[Abby Normal]

Dr Phillips gave his opinion on cause of death for the Pinchin torso. He stated loss of blood. He also stated it was not loss of blood in the stomach or lungs. His supposition was there was a previous cut in the neck that was hidden by the head being cut off. The Pinchin torso also had severe bruising caused before death but very recent. Some bruises on the back indicated the victim may have been kicked. There were also bruises on both arms suggesting a tight grasp. The backs of both forearms and hands were heavily bruised. This all suggests to me a severe beating.

Thanks Jerry
totally agree and thanks for the details.

[MsWeatherwax]

Dr Phillips gave his opinion on cause of death for the Pinchin torso. He stated loss of blood. He also stated it was not loss of blood in the stomach or lungs. His supposition was there was a previous cut in the neck that was hidden by the head being cut off. The Pinchin torso also had severe bruising caused before death but very recent. Some bruises on the back indicated the victim may have been kicked. There were also bruises on both arms suggesting a tight grasp. The backs of both forearms and hands were heavily bruised. This all suggests to me a severe beating.

I know next to nothing about the Torso Murders - were there indications that any of the other victims had been beaten like this? If not, this sounds more like a dismemberment following a domestic murder, by which I mean the victim was dismembered to either aid in the disposal of the body or to conceal the crime. Or both, I suppose.

I'm obviously assuming that dismemberment was the objective of the killer here, probably because I'm thinking in terms of the killer also being JtR, and I've always been of the opinion that mutilation was his overall goal.

I'm not at all sure that they are the same person, to be honest...given the horrific mutilation of the woman that we know as Mary Jane Kelly, I assume that the killer would have had time to dismember her and dispose of the body had he wished to. I also fail to see any level of skill involved in her murder - just a total loss of control and the complete obliteration of a human being. I understand that the dismemberment in the Torso Murders was believed to have been done by someone with some skill.

[jerryd]

I understand that the dismemberment in the Torso Murders was believed to have been done by someone with some skill.

Hi Ms W,

Skill, but not anatomical skill. They believe the torsos that were "connected" by the authorities, the killer displayed a skill in dissection or cutting up animals. With that skill, the killer was very precise. One of the doctors remarked he, himself, could not have done a better job.

[MsWeatherwax]

Hi Ms W,

Skill, but not anatomical skill. They believe the torsos that were "connected" by the authorities, the killer displayed a skill in dissection or cutting up animals. With that skill, the killer was very precise. One of the doctors remarked he, himself, could not have done a better job.

I understand. There was nothing precise about the mutilation of MJK, though - that was just unrestrained butchery.

I suppose that it's possible that his intent with MJK was the same with the other Whitechapel victims (slit throat, abdominal mutilations, leave) and when she presented him with a private room he lost control, but that is absolute guesswork.

[Pierre]

Thanks, Pierre. Would you refresh my memory on which victims you thought were murdered by jack the ripper? I lost track after our doorknob discussion.

Sure.

Nichols - Chapman - Whitehall victim - Stride - Eddowes - Kelly - Jackson - Pinchin Street victim - McKenzie.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Pcdunn]

Brothel catering to sadists?

Dr Phillips gave his opinion on cause of death for the Pinchin torso. He stated loss of blood. He also stated it was not loss of blood in the stomach or lungs. His supposition was there was a previous cut in the neck that was hidden by the head being cut off. The Pinchin torso also had severe bruising caused before death but very recent. Some bruises on the back indicated the victim may have been kicked. There were also bruises on both arms suggesting a tight grasp. The backs of both forearms and hands were heavily bruised. This all suggests to me a severe beating.

If not the victim of domestic abuse, nor a gang of criminals, could it be possible that she had worked at a brothel allowing sadism, and her client had gone too far?

[Elamarna]

Sure.

Nichols - Chapman - Whitehall victim - Stride - Eddowes - Kelly - Jackson - Pinchin Street victim - McKenzie.

Best wishes, Pierre

Pierre,

I note you discount the 87 torso, while I do not agree that the killer of the Torso victims was the same hand as that in Whitechapel, I am somewhat at a loss for this exclusion.
The similarities between the 87 and 89 torso’s are striking, Debra who knows far more about these cases than most, certainly sees the link, can you please explain the reason for the exclusion?

regards

steve

[jerryd]

If not the victim of domestic abuse, nor a gang of criminals, could it be possible that she had worked at a brothel allowing sadism, and her client had gone too far?

Hi Pcdunn,

Could be a number of things, I guess. At one time I formed the opinion she was beaten unconscious by kicks and blows, and then was dragged by the arms to an area to be cut up. Then her throat cut and body mutilated. This would allow for all bruises to form before death.

[Errata]

If not the victim of domestic abuse, nor a gang of criminals, could it be possible that she had worked at a brothel allowing sadism, and her client had gone too far?

This is why I'm wondering if there were signs of any of these victims being bound before death. Because a client killing a whore would certainly create the kind of trouble the owner might want to avoid at any cost. At which point dismemberment and disposal might seem like a good option.

[Pierre]

Pierre,

I note you discount the 87 torso, while I do not agree that the killer of the Torso victims was the same hand as that in Whitechapel, I am somewhat at a loss for this exclusion.
The similarities between the 87 and 89 torso’s are striking, Debra who knows far more about these cases than most, certainly sees the link, can you please explain the reason for the exclusion?

regards

steve

Hi Steve,

Yes. Due to my own laziness when it comes to analysing data in the archive for that year, I can not include the case in the hypothetical series. Sometimes archives can be tedious. But I will do it.

Kind regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Yes. Due to my own laziness when it comes to analysing data in the archive for that year, I can not include the case in the hypothetical series. Sometimes archives can be tedious. But I will do it.

Kind regards, Pierre

can I just clarify,

you are not excluding the possibility, just you are not in a position to say one way or the other?

or am I misunderstanding you?

steve