Torso Murders

[Elamarna]

To Steve

But to me it would seem odd if the Torso murders of 1873,1874 were not related to the later Torso murders. If we are to accept this hypothesis then surely we have a copycat at work. If there was a different perpetrator to the later Torso murders then this would seem to rule out the theory that Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same. Not that I believe Jack and The Torso Killer were the same man.

Cheers John

John

While I agree with your final point; I don't feel they need to be seen as a copycat of the earlier murders, especially given the time gap involved, they are just new murders involving dismemberment and similar disposal methods.

Of course those who wish to suggest a longer killing spree, such as Fisherman will argue they are by the same hand, I cannot prove they are not, and I am sure he will accept he cannot prove they are by the same hand.

Its another of those open debates.


Steve

[Elamarna]

I have not heard that podcast, but I have spoken to Debra privately over the net, and she certainly does not rule the 1870:s torso murders out.

To what degree she accepts a link is for herself to say!

Fisherman

that’s fair enough, the podcast is a few years old. and am happy to accept I may even have misunderstood.

One would have to be very sure to rule something out completely. Think we would agree on that.

best wishes

steve

[Fisherman]

John

Of course those who wish to suggest a longer killing spree, such as Fisherman will argue they are by the same hand, I cannot prove they are not, and I am sure he will accept he cannot prove they are by the same hand.

Steve

I absolutely do - but there is a factor that very much points to a tie between the 1873 torso murder and the Kelly murder.
Otherwise, the fact that we have the same neat cutting together with the muscle contraction that gives away a cutting up very close in time to death is enough for me to conclude that the 1873 murder in all probability belongs to the series.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman

that’s fair enough, the podcast is a few years old. and am happy to accept I may even have misunderstood.

One would have to be very sure to rule something out completely. Think we would agree on that.

best wishes

steve

We would, Steve!

[Elamarna]

I absolutely do - but there is a factor that very much points to a tie between the 1873 torso murder and the Kelly murder.
Otherwise, the fact that we have the same neat cutting together with the muscle contraction that gives away a cutting up very close in time to death is enough for me to conclude that the 1873 murder in all probability belongs to the series.

Hi Fisherman

I am not convinced, but that is fine, unlike some I think its perfectly ok to have different views and still be friendly to each other.

regards

steve

[Harry D]

How many more well-known writers, composers, painters etcetera have been serialists, by the way - have you checked that?

How about that? I'm in total agreement with you, Fish! This is one of my sticking points with Thompson as a suspect (Ripper or Torso). Thompson wouldn't have been the first poet to explore sexual and morbid subject matter. That doesn't make him a serial killer. He may well have been inspired by the Ripper murders.

I think I need to lie down now.

[John Wheat]

John

While I agree with your final point; I don't feel they need to be seen as a copycat of the earlier murders, especially given the time gap involved, they are just new murders involving dismemberment and similar disposal methods.

Of course those who wish to suggest a longer killing spree, such as Fisherman will argue they are by the same hand, I cannot prove they are not, and I am sure he will accept he cannot prove they are by the same hand.

Its another of those open debates.


Steve

Just out of interest Steve who do you think was responsible for the 1884 Torso then? The same killer as the 1873 and 1874 torso's or the 1887-1889 Torso Killer? I note that the 10 year gap seems very coincidental if were not dealing with the same killer or a copycat.

Cheers John

[Trevor Marriott]

John G: Hi Fisherman,

I would have to, respectfully, disagree with this. Apparently, both Chapman's and Eddowes killer removed organs without damage to surrounding tissues.

If we regard how Chapmans killer cut away part of the bladder as doing "no damage to surrounding tissues", you have a point. If we consider leaving a stump of an inch of the uterus inside Eddowes´ body as prime surgical work, then you have a point.

In fact, Paul Harrison and Dr Calder concluded from this, that the bodies couldn't have been eviscerated at the murder site, given the level of skill demonstrated and the time pressure the killer would have been under.

Trevor also consulted a master butcher, who acknowledged that he would not be able to remove organs in such a careful way. In fact, as he pointed out, "In abattoirs very little care is taken in removing the internal organs from animals it is very much what is called " 'cut and slash' " (Marriott, 2013.)

Oh! Dear me!! You subscribe to Trevor Marriotts idea that the organs were taken out in the morgue...!

Okay. Then tell me why a one-inch stump of the womb was left in Eddowes, if there was ample time and light to do it the correct way?
Explain to ne why part of the bladder and the abdominal wall was cut out together with the uterus in Chapmans case?

Tre Ripper is one of the worst things ever to have plagued the earth.

Trevor Marriott has much the same influence on ripperology, I´m afraid. He is ill informed, asks all the wrong questions and presents views on item A as if they were views on item B.

Any disciples of his - and you seem to be one - must prepare themselves to be raked over the coals.

Here you are again spouting of your little known medical knowledge, suggesting that modern day medical experts such as Phil Harrison and Dr Calder who are conducting posts mortems on a daily basis, and are removing organs for that purpose are wrong. I think they know their stuff far better than you and others on here who continually challenge and disagree with what you are told by these experts, simply because it goes against personal beliefs. They have no hidden agenda, they are not ripperologists, they give their opinions in good faith. If those opinion dont sit to well with you and the others then tough.

You have been told by Dr Biggs that at times many of these early victorian doctors opinions were nothing more than guesswork, and that way back then people believed what they were told, shame that doesn't apply today

You were also given the opportunity to put in writing anything you wanted clarifying by Dr Biggs as were others. To date you or anyone else has failed to respond. I would now say that the time has come to either put up or shut up with this course of action knocking these modern day experts

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John Wheat]

How about that? I'm in total agreement with you, Fish! This is one of my sticking points with Thompson as a suspect (Ripper or Torso). Thompson wouldn't have been the first poet to explore sexual and morbid subject matter. That doesn't make him a serial killer. He may well have been inspired by the Ripper murders.

I think I need to lie down now.

To Harry D

I think all the famous suspects Thompson, Sickert, Van Gough etc are complete non starters for either the Ripper or the Torso Killer.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

Here you are again spouting of your little known medical knowledge, suggesting that modern day medical experts such as Phil Harrison and Dr Calder who are conducting posts mortems on a daily basis, and are removing organs for that purpose are wrong. I think they know their stuff far better than you and others on here who continually challenge and disagree with what you are told by these experts, simply because it goes against personal beliefs. They have no hidden agenda, they are not ripperologists, they give their opinions in good faith. If those opinion dont sit to well with you and the others then tough.

You have been told by Dr Biggs that at times many of these early victorian doctors opinions were nothing more than guesswork, and that way back then people believed what they were told, shame that doesn't apply today

You were also given the opportunity to put in writing anything you wanted clarifying by Dr Biggs as were others. To date you or anyone else has failed to respond. I would now say that the time has come to either put up or shut up with this course of action knocking these modern day experts

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones eg those that fail to answer tricky questions shouldn't call others out for not answering tricky questions.

[Elamarna]

Just out of interest Steve who do you think was responsible for the 1884 Torso then? The same killer as the 1873 and 1874 torso's or the 1887-1889 Torso Killer? I note that the 10 year gap seems very coincidental if were not dealing with the same killer or a copycat.

Cheers John

John


my view would be not related to either group, but if had to make a choice the later series.

coincidences do happen.

Steve

[Fisherman]

Trevor Marriott: Here you are again spouting of your little known medical knowledge, suggesting that modern day medical experts such as Phil Harrison and Dr Calder who are conducting posts mortems on a daily basis, and are removing organs for that purpose are wrong. I think they know their stuff far better than you and others on here who continually challenge and disagree with what you are told by these experts, simply because it goes against personal beliefs. They have no hidden agenda, they are not ripperologists, they give their opinions in good faith. If those opinion dont sit to well with you and the others then tough.

Andy Griffiths and James Scoboie had no hidden agenda, and they were not ripperologists, but gave their opinions in good faith.

That did not sit well with you, did it?

Accomplished medicos have differed from Harrison and Calder, and that´s all that needs saying. You are accusing me of cherrypicking, but you do the exact same thing yourself.

You have been told by Dr Biggs that at times many of these early victorian doctors opinions were nothing more than guesswork, and that way back then people believed what they were told, shame that doesn't apply today

And you have been told by me and Debra that Bigg was under- or misinformed, and that he was never in a position to give an informed view.

You were also given the opportunity to put in writing anything you wanted clarifying by Dr Biggs as were others. To date you or anyone else has failed to respond. I would now say that the time has come to either put up or shut up with this course of action knocking these modern day experts

Can you see me shutting up because you wish for it, Trevor? I will do no such thing. I will keep pointing out your shortcomings and your misinformation visavi Biggs, rest assured!

[Fisherman]

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones eg those that fail to answer tricky questions shouldn't call others out for not answering tricky questions.

There you are, Trevor - it seems most posters are on to you.

Have a cup of tea and sit down in the comfy chair. Instead, I mean.

[Fisherman]

To Harry D

I think all the famous suspects Thompson, Sickert, Van Gough etc are complete non starters for either the Ripper or the Torso Killer.

Cheers John

Together with Michael Maybrick... I am very much in agreement here.

[Fisherman]

John


my view would be not related to either group, but if had to make a choice the later series.

coincidences do happen.

Steve

Quoting James Scobie: "When the coincidences mount up ... it becomes one coincidence too many."