Torso Murders

[jerryd]

Just me, speculating again...

TRAIN OF THOUGHT.

In the Morning Advertiser [9oct88], Mr. Charles A Hebbert stated this:

With regard to the piece of paper, which was stained, he had since made inquiries and found it was a piece of the Echo of the 24th August last. He found it on the ground where the trunk had been taken from. With regard to the material in which the trunk was wrapped, he had had inquiry made, and found it was broché satin cloth, of Bradford manufacture, but of old pattern, probably three years. It had a flounce six inches deep at the bottom.

* Casebook doesn't list this Echo new report under PRESS REPORTS; however, regarding the case, the news for that day was the Martha Tabram inquest.

I had to look up what broche satin cloth is; 'fancy' might be a fair assessment. Too fancy? (shrugs) However, one of the themes that grabs my eye in this case is the fabric aspect - silk kerchiefs, velvet cloth, new bonnets, shabby clothes worn well, astrakhan, buttons placed by the victims, neatly-tied parcels (tailor-like?), etc. It reminded me of the Hanbury district where Ann Chapman was measured, which brought up these questions for me:

1. Was Hanbury St. a Jewish fabric/tailor district?
2. Did any of the shops manufacture soldier's uniforms or possibly sew on insignia?
3. I know that Cross and Paul go in the direction of Hanbury St off Buck's Row. Would Goulston St. be passed from Mitre Square to Hanbury St.?
4. What types of knives would a tailor use?
5. Considering the newspaper ref. the Martha Tabram inquest, what happened to Pearly Polly?

Hi Robert,

I looked awhile back at the Echo for that date and I don't recall that paper covering the inquest of Tabram in that issue. I'll take another peek though to make sure.

[Columbo]

It may have been. It's one of those things where you sort of have to decide whether or not there was a developmental discrepancy with the fetus, or theres a whole other missing but unpickled fetus running around somewhere.

Really either way is just unlikely, but one has to be true.

It's just surreal. But the Ripper murders, zero humor. One might even say that they are devoid of any strong emotion or influence. Little rage, little panic, little anything.

So what do we make of the items neatly lined up in a row? could that be an inside joke of sorts?
I also think the cuts on Eddowes face must mean something to him. They were pretty odd types of mutilation.

Columbo

[Columbo]

All of this is so silly that I do not have any comments on it. Or perhaps I do: the speculations of ripperology transferred to the question of various dismemberment murders.

Regards, Pierre

Maybe but it's not totally out of the question that JTR could've moved on to something along those lines. We just don't know.

Columbo

[jerryd]

Maybe but it's not totally out of the question that JTR could've moved on to something along those lines. We just don't know.

Columbo

Hi Columbo,

I think Pierre is making his usual statement that Ripperologists only speculate and present no facts. Which he is wrong. As far as moving on to dismemberment, it would have to be the other way around if they[torsoman and JTR] were the same man.

[Robert St Devil]

Jack the Tailor

Hi Robert,

I looked awhile back at the Echo for that date and I don't recall that paper covering the inquest of Tabram in that issue. I'll take another peek though to make sure.

Thanks jerryd . Cover your kids ears; I'm about to blaspheme BNA with some serious fury!!!

When I didn't see it in PR, I looked at what the other newspaper were covering that day that would've been Ripper/Torso related.

That, and the material of the thread caught my eye - a 3 yr old pattern of broche satin cloth. Had to 'net it, thought it seemed somewhat fancy. That, and how everyone remarks on his parcel-tying skills really amazes me. Like, "He cut her body up, but did you see that knot? {whistles}"

{Prev post err: It was Inspector Marshall, CID, who assessed the material, not Mr. Charles Hibberd.}

[RockySullivan]

It was the day after the Tabram verdict I believe. There is also a talk by Cornwell where she mentions letters in the echo on that date.
"She researched the paper clipping and found that on 24 August 1888, five letters were written to the editor and signed simply, "W.S." She insisted that it was Sickert who wrote the letters to the editor, thereby giving the police a clue to his being the killer by attaching the newspaper clipping to the body."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/medine-cornwell.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=C3TUKNroaYkC&pg=PT347&lpg=PT347&dq=CORNWELL+AUGUST+24+ECHO&source=bl&ots=7VCrdnhKt-&sig=LZMBO56yWbamptpdQUN0Ukv1dW8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrnfL30tjMAhVM6iYKHSKvBz4Q6AEIKDAD#v=onepage&q=CORNWELL%20AUGUST%2024%20ECHO&f=false

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John G, the knife slipped eh?

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I think at this point John Arnold is a suspect. I think the "what's on Guvnor" man with the broom is a person of interest. Francis Tyler is another person I'd like to learn more about, and some of the workers from Whitehall could be considered persons of interest. It might be worth noting that in The Forgotten victims, it's claimed that the house where the officer was knocking up at the time the Pinchin Torso was likely dumped, was suspected of possibly being involved in a conspiracy to distract the officer away from the dump site. I'd love to find the source for this rumor, according to the authors it was a contemporary theory so there must be some news article on it somewhere? would love to know who lived at the address. A good question is are the torso killings the work of one man or multiple working together?

[Robert St Devil]

It was the day after the Tabram verdict I believe. There is also a talk by Cornwell where she mentions letters in the echo on that date.
"She researched the paper clipping and found that on 24 August 1888, five letters were written to the editor and signed simply, "W.S." She insisted that it was Sickert who wrote the letters to the editor, thereby giving the police a clue to his being the killer by attaching the newspaper clipping to the body."

Which would mean that... William Sickert is possibly the Torso Killer but is not Jack the Ripper; however, he may have known Jack the Ripper, and that's why he painted his room... if he's the kinda guy who leaves clues! [Which direction was his room from Mitre Square?]

My apologies, jumping to conclusions, still an hour left of Friday the 13th, thanks for the follow/up

Wait! Is Jack the Ripper's Bedroom No.13 Miller's Court? Red handkerchief...

[Fisherman]

It may have been. It's one of those things where you sort of have to decide whether or not there was a developmental discrepancy with the fetus, or theres a whole other missing but unpickled fetus running around somewhere.

Really either way is just unlikely, but one has to be true.

It's just surreal. But the Ripper murders, zero humor. One might even say that they are devoid of any strong emotion or influence. Little rage, little panic, little anything.

I am going to have to mull that over - I have never thought about that particular aspect of the case before. What I have pondered is how the two series have an element of being very theatrical in common, and I think I know at least part of the answer to why that is.

As fot the fetus in the jar, I tend to buy what the medicos said - that it was not Jacksons. Maybe it did not correspond agewise to what they expected or something like that, and anyhow, illegal abortions were not unheard of or even uncommon (let´s hope Trevor does not see that one... ).

[Fisherman]

PS. Come to think of it, Errata, why would we predispose that we share the same kind of humour, you, me - and the Ripper...?

I think the likenesses are much more telling than any perception of a lacking sense of humour on account of one of the killers. The abdominal flaps, the long cut to the abdomen, the taking away of all sorts of organs, surely those are very clear indicators?

[John G]

I think there can be very little doubt that the 1873 torso victim is related to the ones of 87, 88 and 89. The body was cut up immediately after death (or even before), just as the other torsos, and there was the same dexterity and skill in the cutting; clean, unhesitating cuts and disarticulation had taken the body apart. The quick cutting up of the body is a very odd and unusual detail, pointing clearly to it being part of the aim with the killing. Any "normal" killing for, say, sexual desire, would reasonably involve the killing itself, followed by a cooling down period. After that, the killer would tend to the practical side of the murder, like disposing of the body. And there would be no muscle contraction. But in these cases, there is always muscle contraction. It is as if he could not wait to cut away with exactitude and great craftsmanship. It was never about disposing of the body, therefore, if you ask me - it was about a wish to deconstruct the body.

All the torso victims lacked inner parts, but having been thrown in the water in a cut up condition, it is hard to prove that they all had parts deliberately taken away. In some cases, however, like the Jackson case, the medicos are clear in pointing out that parts had been "removed", like for example the heart, lungs and thoracic viscera.

There is nothing pointing to the seventies victims having had their abdominal walls removed.

I don´t lean slightly to a common identity. I am at a 89 per cent angle, ready to bang my nose against the floor...

Very little doubt?

[RockySullivan]

I am quite rusty, but I am thinking the strongest connection between the 70's and later torso murders is the powder?

[John G]

Thanks John
Appreciate that.

What or where was FT doing in summer and early fall of 1889 when mckenzie was murdered and the pinchin torso? You see where I'm going with this and I'm being totally serious.

Hi Abby,

I don't believe Thompson was in Whitechapel at that point. However, my feeling is that whoever was responsible for the Torso victims must-have had a place to dismember the bodies and store the remains, and possibly transport as well. And that would surely rule out candidates such as Thompson and Hutchinson, who were homeless in 1888.

[John G]

Christer:

What Phillips says is that the killer was able to secure the womb and part of the bladder with "one sweep of the knife". And that is not something surgeons do. Ever. Ergo, Phillips thught that the knofe work was of a very high quality. And that is very reminiscent of the Torso man.

Do you think that level of skill would be acquired by a meat cart driver or someone who helped out in his Ma's cats' meat shop? Would he have so frequently 'secured' internal organs with a single sweep of the knife that he developed such a recognisable skill?

I'm with you when you speak of the similarities between the torso and JTR injuries, but for me that makes Lechmere an even less likely candidate.

Gary

Yes, I completely agree with this. If Dr Phillips was correct, Lechenere can be safely ruled out as a candidate.

[Fisherman]

Very little doubt?

Yes, that is how I see it. Once again, here is the list of likenesses:

1. We have two series of murders, one spanning from 1873-1889, the other taking place in 1888. So they overlap.

2. We have evidence telling us that both series involve prostitutes as victims, and there is no evidence that any of the victims was not a prostitute.

3. We have one of the victims in series 1 being dumped in the killing zone of series 2.

4. We have evidence showing us that some of the victims of both series had their abdomens cut open from breastbone to pubes.

5. We have evidence telling us that both killers were eviscerators.

6. We know that both killers took out not only sexually oriented organs, but also non-sexually oriented organs from the bodies of the victims.

7. There are victims in both series who had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps of skin with subcutaneous tissue attached.

8. We know that the killers in both series took the trouble to cut out organs, only to subsequently discard them.

9. We know that both perpetrators of the two series were said to be very skilled with a knife.

That is enough for me to feel pretty certain that we are dealing with the same man. If not, I would like to see a parallel case where so many rare things were coincidentally in common for two serialists working at the same stage in the same area.

[Fisherman]

I am quite rusty, but I am thinking the strongest connection between the 70's and later torso murders is the powder?

There are three other things I think are telling:

1. All the torsos victims were cut up very close in time to their deaths
2. All torso victims were cut up with great skill, instead of the crudeness that is normally the rule

The third thing is something I am not giving away as yet. Sorry about that!