Torso Murders

[John Wheat]

Where was Francis Thompson in November, 1888?

That would be a start.

Fair point MrBarnett. But I don't believe Francis Thompson is anything like as strong a suspect for the Ripper murders as some. However I'm open to the possibility he could have been the Torso killer.

Cheers John

[Fisherman]

Fair point MrBarnett. But I don't believe Francis Thompson is anything like as strong a suspect for the Ripper murders as some. However I'm open to the possibility he could have been the Torso killer.

Cheers John

I think that the 1873 Torso murder most definitely belongs to the torso series - and Thompson was a mere 14 at that time. I therefore discount him as being the Torso killer.

[Fisherman]

Wasn't there a hit man who froze the corpses of his victims in order to throw off the TOD estimates? I think that actually worked, and that was in the 1980s or thereabouts, so I'd be surprised if the 1880s doctors could tell.
However, they also had electric freezers in the 1980s, and I suspect very few places in London even had an ice shed in the LVP. Do you have a theory in mind?

Indeed there was: Richard "Iceman" Kuklinski, if my memory serves me.

[Fisherman]

Let´s just stop for a moment and see how far we have reached.

1. We have two series of murders, one spanning from 1873-1889, the other taking place in 1888. So they overlap.

2. We have evidence telling us that both series involve prostitutes as victims, and there is no evidence that any of the victims was not a prostitute.

3. We have one of the victims in series 1 being dumped in the killing zone of series 2.

4. We have evidence showing us that some of the victims of both series had their abdomens cut open from breastbone to pubes.

5. We have evidence telling us that both killers were eviscerators.

6. We know that both killers took out not only sexually oriented organs, but also non-sexually oriented organs from the bodies of the victims.

7. There are victims in both series who had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps of skin with subcutaneous tissue attached.

8. We know that the killers in both series took the trouble to cut out organs, only to subsequently discard them.

9. We know that both perpetrators of the two series were said to be very skilled with a knife.

So which is the reasonable conclusion here?

[John Wheat]

I think that the 1873 Torso murder most definitely belongs to the torso series - and Thompson was a mere 14 at that time. I therefore discount him as being the Torso killer.

To Fisherman

Good point I worked out Thompson's age in 1873 incorrectly. I also happen to think the earlier Torso murders belong with the 1887, 1888 and 1889 murders.

Cheers John

[Fisherman]

To Fisherman

Good point I worked out Thompson's age in 1873 incorrectly. I also happen to think the earlier Torso murders belong with the 1887, 1888 and 1889 murders.

Cheers John

You do realize that Thompson and Bury were born the same year, 1859?

[John Wheat]

You do realize that Thompson and Bury were born the same year, 1859?

Well now you come to mention it. Yes they were.

[Fisherman]

Well now you come to mention it. Yes they were.

Indeed. And to me, that means that if the Torso killer and the Ripper were one and the same - which I think they were - then the identity behind them was not that of William Henry Bury. We are looking for an older killer ...

[John Wheat]

Indeed. And to me, that means that if the Torso killer and the Ripper were one and the same - which I think they were - then the identity behind them was not that of William Henry Bury. We are looking for an older killer ...

To Fisherman

I don't believe they were one and the same but I do agree we are looking for someone who was an adult in 1873 as regards the Torso murders.

Cheers John

[Pierre]

Let´s just stop for a moment and see how far we have reached.

1. We have two series of murders, one spanning from 1873-1889, the other taking place in 1888. So they overlap.

Depends on what you mean by "series". 1873-1889 might not be anything else than a time period. - 1 point.

2. We have evidence telling us that both series involve prostitutes as victims, and there is no evidence that any of the victims was not a prostitute.

Lack of sources is meaningless. - 1 point.

3. We have one of the victims in series 1 being dumped in the killing zone of series 2.

"Killing zone"? What sort of a theoretical construction is that? We do not know they were killed.
- 1 point.

4. We have evidence showing us that some of the victims of both series had their abdomens cut open from breastbone to pubes.

5. We have evidence telling us that both killers were eviscerators.

"Both killers" might be none or more than two. - 1 point.

6. We know that both killers took out not only sexually oriented organs, but also non-sexually oriented organs from the bodies of the victims.

We do not know there were two killers and we do not know if other organs/removal of those organs had sexual implications for the remover(s) of those organs.
- 2 points.

7. There are victims in both series who had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps of skin with subcutaneous tissue attached.

8. We know that the killers in both series took the trouble to cut out organs, only to subsequently discard them.

We do not know there were any killers. - 1 point.

9. We know that both perpetrators of the two series were said to be very skilled with a knife.

We know nothing of the concept "both perpetrators". - 1 point.

So which is the reasonable conclusion here?

The resonable conclusion here is: - 8 points.

I am sorry but you used the words "evidence" and "know". You should have used the word "think" in some of the examples.

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

The resonable conclusion here is: - 8 points.

Regards, Pierre

Agreeing with most of those comments Pierre

However(there is always one) you give no scoring system, so I certainly do not know what -8 points means, I assume a very poor score.


In addition a mistake on point 8?:

Fisherman:

"8. We know that the killers in both series took the trouble to cut out organs, only to subsequently discard them."


Pierre:

"We do not know there were any killers. - 1 point."



Clearly fisherman is talking about the Torso and Whitechapel cases when he says both.

While some argue the torso's were not murders, that is certainly not true for the Whitechapel Murders.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

The resonable conclusion here is: - 8 points.

I am sorry but you used the words "evidence" and "know". You should have used the word "think" in some of the examples.

Regards, Pierre

So, Pierre, you do not believe the C5 were killed. That's pretty radical.

[Fisherman]

To Fisherman

I don't believe they were one and the same but I do agree we are looking for someone who was an adult in 1873 as regards the Torso murders.

Cheers John

So to your mind, the points I listed in post 124 would have been merely coincidental...?

[John Wheat]

Agreeing with most of those comments Pierre

However(there is always one) you give no scoring system, so I certainly do not know what -8 points means, I assume a very poor score.


In addition a mistake on point 8?:

Fisherman:

"8. We know that the killers in both series took the trouble to cut out organs, only to subsequently discard them."


Pierre:

"We do not know there were any killers. - 1 point."



Clearly fisherman is talking about the Torso and Whitechapel cases when he says both.

While some argue the torso's were not murders, that is certainly not true for the Whitechapel Murders.


Steve

Steve I know what your saying but the theory that The Torso Victims were not murdered and dismembered is a very weak one.

Cheers John

[Fisherman]

Clearly fisherman is talking about the Torso and Whitechapel cases when he says both.

While some argue the torso's were not murders, that is certainly not true for the Whitechapel Murders.


Steve

I´m mostly baffled by how a very clear and succinct post, listing the points where the two series have common traits that are sometimes extremely rare, can be submerged into a bog of quasi-academical bickering.

Ripperology at it´s worst, if you ask me.

By the way, I think that the 1873 case, the Jackson case and the Pinchin Street case were all legally deemed as murders. So there is legal precedence for using that term about both the Ripper and the Thames torso man.