Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Colin Roberts]

That knife-related killings in the Metropolis were not perhaps quite as rare as some of us have hithertofore believed

And how rare, precisely, have some of us hitherto believed them to have been?

I don't believe that any of us has seen an "official" statistic pertaining to "knife-related killings in the Metropolis" in 1888. I know that I certainly have not. And if such a statistic did exist, I seriously doubt that it would include the torsos, Millwood, et al.

unless the Met's stats (or our interpretation of them) are somehow awry

"or our interpretation of them"

Hmmmmmm!

do we know the basis on which they were compiled? Are they for example homicides or murders excluding manslaughters, or what?

I do!

You have suggested that something "stinks", and that you are somewhat inclined to believe that it may be the "official" statistics.

What stinks is the inability of many around here to bookmark the statistics once they have been presented. And what really stinks - to high heaven, in fact - is the inability of the same to contextualize the statistics.

Gareth (Sam Flynn) has suggested that the statistics should be viewed with "extreme caution". Nonsense!

They are what they are. They simply need to be viewed in the appropriate context.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi John

As was the Southwark Torso, which was discovered in June 1889, not 1888

.

Quite right - my slip...but that still leaves 16 knife-related killings out of a total you're quoting of 28....still a very high proportion...unless the Met's stats (or our interpretation of them) are somehow awry...do we know the basis on which they were compiled? Are they for example homicides or murders excluding manslaughters, or what?

However, the vast majority of these murders were domestic crimes. What there is no evidence of, prior to 1888 Whitechapel, is prostitutes being found in the middle of the street, either mutilated or with their throats cut.

I don't disagree, but then again I don't recall making any distinction between domestic or non-domestic crimes - I was discussing the number of knife-related killings

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

What, exactly, does this clarify?

That knife-related killings in the Metropolis were not perhaps quite as rare as some of us have hithertofore believed

[John G]

In the interests of clarity, the (female) knife-death cases I'm aware of so far (and I'm certainly no researcher by any definition) are, (in no particular order):-

Martha Tabram
Polly Nicholls
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Jane Kelly
Hannah Potzdamer
Lucy Clark
Mary Newman
Sarah Brown
Annie Millwood (ok she died some weeks after)
The Scotland Yard Torso
The Southwark Torso
Elizabeth Gorman (possibly a bodged abortion)

There are also two more definite abortion bodges, Emma Wakefield and Eliza Schummacher...

Anyone want to start on the males? I can begin with Joseph Rumbold and Henry Talbot...and there's a kiddie...poor little Percy Brown...there have to be more

All the best

Dave

Hello,

28 murders are listed by the Metropolitan Police for the whole of London in 1888, the vast majority being domestic murder- well, apart from in Whitechapel that is! This is a dramatic increase on the 9 recorded murders for 1885, 8 for 1886, and 13 for 1887. After 1888, we have 17 recorded murders for 1889, 16 for 1890 and 12 for 1891. 1888 was certainly an extraordinary year for murder, especially in Whitechapel! I mean, the C5 and Tabram alone accounted for almost a quarter of the murders for 1888, and within one tiny district!

Of some of the other murders that you have cited the Scotland Yard Torso is clearly part of a different series of killings: the Thames Torso Murders. As was the Southwark Torso, which was discovered in June 1889, not 1888.Mary Newman, Hannah Potzdamer and Sarah Brown were domestic murders, as were the vast majority of murders for the period (Stubley, 2012).

Now I'm not suggesting that violent crime didn't exist in late Victorian London, of course it did. And, of course, if you're going to expand your criteria to the whole of the Metropolis with its 5.4 million people, rather than just one small district, Whitechapel, you are going to find a number of violent crimes, including knife crimes.

However, the vast majority of these murders were domestic crimes. What there is no evidence of, prior to 1888 Whitechapel, is prostitutes being found in the middle of the street, either mutilated or with their throats cut.

Best wishes,

John

[Colin Roberts]

In the interests of clarity, ...

What, exactly, does this clarify?

[Cogidubnus]

1888 London knife deaths

In the interests of clarity, the (female) knife-death cases I'm aware of so far (and I'm certainly no researcher by any definition) are, (in no particular order):-

Martha Tabram
Polly Nicholls
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Jane Kelly
Hannah Potzdamer
Lucy Clark
Mary Newman
Sarah Brown
Annie Millwood (ok she died some weeks after)
The Scotland Yard Torso
The Southwark Torso
Elizabeth Gorman (possibly a bodged abortion)

There are also two more definite abortion bodges, Emma Wakefield and Eliza Schummacher...

Anyone want to start on the males? I can begin with Joseph Rumbold and Henry Talbot...and there's a kiddie...poor little Percy Brown...there have to be more

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

That's the figure that was quoted to me earlier in the thread...

[Colin Roberts]

the official statistics for the whole of London for that year...which is quoted as 11...

By whom?

[Cogidubnus]

You Know it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some people will go to to support a pet theory, however undermined it has become.

Thus, crime statistic reveal that murder was very uncommon in Whitechapel. Well, it is argued, the data must be flawed, mustn't it? Never mind the inconvenient fact that no hard evidence is provided to support this contention.

I wasn't aware that I had a theory...never mind a pet theory...I merely pointed out that knife crime didn't seem to be as rare as some people painted it...and I backed it up with a list of cases...I'm aware I quoted some from outside of 1888, but I never pretended otherwise...

However, if you truly wish to embrace inconvenient truths, go to the newspapers, start counting the number of deceased knife crime victims of 1888 and then compare them with the official statistics for the whole of London for that year...which is quoted as 11...

All the best

Dave

[Colin Roberts]

"I need not do more than merely allude to the extraordinary series of murders which occurred in Whitechapel, which gave rise to the greatest excitement in London."

James Monro,

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

~~~

Report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

For the Year 1888

Presented to both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty

London: Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1889

---

Monro must have been quite the idiot!

If he had simply recognized the gross incompetence and statistical ineptitude of the Superintendent Registrar of the Whitechapel Registration District and Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England - that so many of us have been able to discern from behind our keyboards - then he would have grasped the trivial nature of these murders, and would not have squandered the precious resources of the Metropolitan Police Service by dispatching unneeded reinforcements to H Division, and conducting extravagant house-to-house searches therein.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello John

Moroever, as Keppel et al. also point out, there is clear evidence of trauma to the genital area

Another aspect of the Keppel paper that he and his co-authors over-cook. There may have been (incidental?) trauma to Tabram's pubic area, but it is surely dwarfed by the constellation of nearly 40 deliberate stabs that peppered her upper abdomen, chest and neck. The focus of Tabram's killer was decidedly on the top half of her body, quite unlike what we see in any of the Ripper, or "ripper-like", murders that followed so soon afterwards.

[John G]

The idea that the Ripper 'refined' his technique after Tabram's murder is quite preposterous to me. This whole 'Oh, I'll have to cut the next one's throat!' as if throat-cutting was this sudden revelation when it comes to murder. No, the Tabram murder has all the hallmarks of a frenzied attack, driven by anger rather than some kind of twisted, visceral fantasy with the canonicals. With Tabram, it looks like murder was the goal of the perpetrator, hence the wild overkill and lack of post-modern signature.

Hi Harry,

To be fair there was a time when I would have agreed with you. However, I now share the opinion of Keppel, et al. (2005), that overkill was a feature of all of the C5 murders. Moroever, as Keppel et al. also point out, there is clear evidence of trauma to the genital area, a very rare feature in modern murders. Coupled with the overall rarity of the crime- I'm not aware of another murder in Whitechapel, either pre or post 1888 which demonstrated anything like the same degree of violence/overkill- convinces me that Tabram was a victim of JtR.

What I think probably happened is that an inexperienced JtR lacked the degree of self-control evident in the C5, where there is evidence of a more refined, clinical technique. Maybe his failure to adopt an efficient means to kill Tabram, instead resorting to haphazard stabbings ,meant that, for him, she took too long to die. Perhaps this made him angry, or maybe Tabram said or did something to inflame his anger? Interestingly, Jean Jordan was easily the most severely mutilated of all of Sutcliffe's murders. The reason he gave was that he became enraged at his failure to find an incriminating £5 note so he went into an uncontrolled rage. An insight into the strange workings of a serial killer's mind!

Anyway, there was a time when even Trevor Marriott appeared to agree with me about Tabram!

Cheers,

John

[Harry D]

The idea that the Ripper 'refined' his technique after Tabram's murder is quite preposterous to me. This whole 'Oh, I'll have to cut the next one's throat!' as if throat-cutting was this sudden revelation when it comes to murder. No, the Tabram murder has all the hallmarks of a frenzied attack, driven by anger rather than some kind of twisted, visceral fantasy with the canonicals. With Tabram, it looks like murder was the goal of the perpetrator, hence the wild overkill and lack of post-mortem signature.

[John G]

An Inconvenient Truth: The Shirley Harrison Approach

Hello,

You Know it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some people will go to to support a pet theory, however undermined it has become.

Thus, crime statistic reveal that murder was very uncommon in Whitechapel. Well, it is argued, the data must be flawed, mustn't it? Never mind the inconvenient fact that no hard evidence is provided to support this contention.

By the way, do you know what Shirley Harrison's response was to clear scientific conclusions that the handwriting in the Maybrick diary didn't remotely match his known handwriting? She argued that his handwriting style must have changed or that he was trying to disguise his own handwriting! Never mind that there's is no evidence to support this hypothesis; but then why let an inconvenient truth get in the way of a pet theory?

Of course, I'm not saying that violent crime wasn't common in Whitechapel. Emma Smith, for instance, was violently assaulted in 1888. However, despite the ferocity of the attack she survived, and was conscious for several days afterwards. JtR afforded his unfortunate victims no such courtesy: like Stride, they were dispatched with ruthless efficiency.

Let's face it, the simple fact is that the murders of the C5 and Tabram were virtually unprecedented. I mean, should you wish to challenge that assertion then try and cite any murders in Whitechapel, either prior to 1888, or post 1888, that bear the simple characteristics of a women being found dead in the street with either her throat severely cut or evidence of abdominal mutilations. Personally I can think of just two: Alice Mckenzie and Frances Coles.

Mind you, what's the betting that some poster will argue that there were probably scores of MJK- style murders since 1888, but they were obviously covered-up by the police, perhaps listed as "accidents" or "self-inflicted" wounds, either to avoid another Ripper scare or to cover up police incompetence.

Or maybe these unrecorded victims were killed by aliens and then transported away to the planet Zog! I mean, what is the evidence that didn't happen?

And what about the multitude of other evidence linking the C5 and Tabram? For instance, Keppel et al, (2005) list 12 separate characteristics, present in these murders, which underpin the Ripper's unique signature, i.e posing, picquerism, overkill, victims immediately incapacitated. Another inconvenient truth, which some seek to ignore?

Or the fact that the murders are linked by the strategy the killer adopted to avoid getting covered in blood, i.e cutting the victims throat when they were close to the ground, coupled with strangulation or suffocation to further restrict the blood flow: in the case of Liz Stride this tactic worked so well that, despite her throat being severely cut, hardly any blood was found on Stride, her clothing, or the surrounding area. Another inconvenient truth to be quietly ignored?

Or the fact that all of these rare/unprecedented crimes occurred in just one year and within one square mile: yet another inconvenient truth?

Or what about selection of murder scene? In Stride's case, for instance, the site of the attack was cloaked in near pitch black darkness, allowing the killer to operate undisturbed. Moreover, as she was killed at the front of the yard the killer had a clear escape route into Berner Street. It is submitted that the other murder sites were also well chosen.

I Haven't even mentioned the fact that, according to modern evidence, a combination of characteristics, involving mutilation and posing, is so rare that it appears in just 1 in 2000 murder case. Or that trauma to the genital area, evident in all of the C5 plus Tabram, except Stride where the killer was almost certainly interrupted,, occurs in less than one in a thousand cases. This is despite the fact that stabbing and cutting wound are relatively common in murders: Keppel et al. (2005)

No doubt some poster will argue that such crimes must have been extremely common in 1888: what's the betting, though, that they fail to offer a shred of supporting evidence?

In fact, some people have gone to such lengths to protect their own theory that it is has even resulted in internal contradictions. Trevor Marriott, for example, argues that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim because of differences in MO. However, he subsequently argues that Lottie Morgan probably was a victim of JtR, or Carl Feigenbaum, which for him means the same thing, even though she was killed in America and by an assailant wielding an axe! I mean at least Liz Stride was killed in Whitechapel by a killer using a knife.

Mind you to be fair to Trevor, in his first book on the subject he does argue that Kelly, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and possibly Tabram were murdered by the same killer. (Marriott, 2005)

I, for one, am willing to embrace inconvenient facts/truths, especially when they accord with the clear empirical evidence. Anyone favour taking the same approach? Or maybe you're more attracted to the Shirley Harrison/Russell Edwards approach to Ripperology!

Cheers,

John

[GUT]

I don't think you can extrapolate too much from Victorian crime statistics, really.
Many weren't collected in any sort of comprehensive way at all, they were often lodged and collated in a way that would be unacceptable today.

I won't argue with that, all that I will say is that if 11 is close it isn't that rare compared to today's numbers.