Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[caz]

Hi Barnaby,

I agree.

I don't quite understand the argument that the killer of Tabram could not have evolved, in such a short space of time, into the man who killed Nichols, when the alternative is usually that Nichols was his first victim. How he was meant to go from nothing to Nichols if he couldn't go from, say, Smith and Tabram to Nichols, is never really addressed.

Love,

Caz
X

[Barnaby]

As Tom's book details, there is a psychopath operating in a tiny area killing women by raping them with a sharp object. And then the canonical 5 occur in the exact same tiny area to the exact same type of women. To me, it is incredulous to believe there is no connection.

[crberger]

Hmm

Which leads to a good point about the mo...where was JTR practicing before he escalated to a canonical victim?

Has anyone searched the UK for escalating prostitute murders in the time frame leading to the five?

What are the probabilities of JTR fully forming his mo and then starting his killing spree?

If this is the wrong forum for these questions, please let me know so that I post them properly

[elleryqueen74]

I don't know eq. I don't think prostitutes back then lied down when servicing clients.
And when you compare all the similarities with the other victims:
Dress pushed up
Murder by knife
Unsolved
Private parts targeted
Prostitutes
Same location
Same time of night
Evidence of strangulation
Proximity and pattern chronologically
Overkill
Silence of attack

It's just too much coincidence for me.
Differences could easily be attributed to evolution in mo of serial killer. Few, if any serial killers start with their MO fully formed.

I don't think the evolution of the mo could be quite so extreme in the very next murder, if we are to accept that Nichols was his next victim. You may expect some evolution but to that extreme so soon? I don't know.

All of the other "evidence" you bring up suggesting that JtR could be responsible for Tabram could also suggest JtR was responsible for quite a lot of murders before and after the C5 dating back year and years after, I really don't think JtR was guilty of every murder of a prostitute that happened at night in silence with a knife in the east end of London in and around that time, the evidence for mine is just too broad.

[Abby Normal]

Could her dress not of been pushed up and her being on her back suggest she was servicing a client at the time of her death? Would give a very reasonable explanation for that. Could it of been the said gentleman didn't want to pay for his umm service as it where and decided to kill her instead?

When we are talking about prostitutes in 1888 London it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them to be lifting/pushing up their dresses in order to service their clients while they were doing so outside in public.

The other thing which no doubt has been mention is the total lack of "ripping" and no throat slashing either. I find it hard to fathom, but not impossible I guess that he would of gone from just stabbing to ripping and mutilating the next time he murdered.

I don't know eq. I don't think prostitutes back then lied down when servicing clients.
And when you compare all the similarities with the other victims:
Dress pushed up
Murder by knife
Unsolved
Private parts targeted
Prostitutes
Same location
Same time of night
Evidence of strangulation
Proximity and pattern chronologically
Overkill
Silence of attack

It's just too much coincidence for me.
Differences could easily be attributed to evolution in mo of serial killer. Few, if any serial killers start with their MO fully formed.

[GUT]

G'day Sunbury

Download the Kindle then

Just ordered the book, Hate hate hate reading on screen, but I am going to order Kindle later because of the discount Tom's offering.

[Michael W Richards]

The throat slashing, or more to the point...the very specific type of throat cuts that are seen on some of the Canonicals should be considered when assessing Martha as a possible Ripper victim. Or any unsolved murder victim of the period, for that matter. 2 examples of those specific kinds of cuts are found in consecutive murders. In those cases the pushing up or cutting of clothing, led to post mortem abdominal cuts. As it did in a later murder in the alleged Ripper series.

The probability that a killer who just stabs Martha to death, making her skirts ride up as she collapses... while alone with her and off the streets shortly thereafter somehow in a few short weeks becomes a killer who cut(s) throats so deeply that he nicks vertebrae and forgoes stabbing for post mortem abdominal field surgery, some of which is advanced enough that some medical experts suggested that the killer was medically trained, is slim in my estimation. There is little or zero evolution evidence from Pollys to Annies murder.... unless you consider his backyard venue as a learned choice. But there is establishment of some patterns and a repetition of those very specific kinds of throat cuts we have not seen before Polly, and only see in some of the Canonicals.

What we can see about Marthas killer is that he knew where to stab and find major organs, he does so repeatedly. Seems an awful lot like something a soldier would know to do when in close combat. I know Tom said that soldiers were not involved, but we do have a witness to the couples drinking at 11pm that night in the White Swan Public house together, with soldiers of ranks like later described by Poll. Anne Morris.

And PC Barretts story suggests that there were soldiers, in pairs, out that night at 2am, looking to get "lucky".

Cheers

[elleryqueen74]

Hi eq74
lying on back with dressed pushed up. with all the other similarities to the other victims, that's the one that clinched it for me. Tabram was a ripper victim.

Could her dress not of been pushed up and her being on her back suggest she was servicing a client at the time of her death? Would give a very reasonable explanation for that. Could it of been the said gentleman didn't want to pay for his umm service as it where and decided to kill her instead?

When we are talking about prostitutes in 1888 London it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them to be lifting/pushing up their dresses in order to service their clients while they were doing so outside in public.

The other thing which no doubt has been mention is the total lack of "ripping" and no throat slashing either. I find it hard to fathom, but not impossible I guess that he would of gone from just stabbing to ripping and mutilating the next time he murdered.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for pointing that out Tom, interesting , I guess we can't rule out she was a victim of Jacky. I am still leaning towards she wasn't but you never know.

Hi eq74
lying on back with dressed pushed up. with all the other similarities to the other victims, that's the one that clinched it for me. Tabram was a ripper victim.

[Sunbury]

Thanks Sunbury. I appreciate your support of my book and ideas. I should mention that my suspicion of a few of the landlords is not a theory I cooked up but something I was led to by a discovery of new facts. I hope it's something that can be discussed once more people have read the book.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I made a mistake in my post when I equated the Land Lord's with Property Owners, they were not the property owners but were the Lessee's. In Victorian England approximately 80% of land was owned by about 7,000 people. People bought Leases and not land. Those (upper class) who owned the land kept tight control for themselves.

In Great Britain, the problems of unemployment and poverty were chronic in the 1880s. London, then the biggest city on earth, had almost 4 million inhabitants in 1881. Although there existed incredible wealth in this city and social improvement had made life better than ever for some, there were many poor people. Fewer than 7000 people owned four-fifths of the land and the majority of the population was exploited by the wealthy upper class.

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/10/3343.full

[elleryqueen74]

I wouldn't say that's lame at all, but Tabram (and Smith) were killed on bank holidays, which is pretty much like a weekend.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks for pointing that out Tom, interesting , I guess we can't rule out she was a victim of Jacky. I am still leaning towards she wasn't but you never know.

[Tom_Wescott]

I am reading your book Tom and agree. The Landlords were very much lthe Mafia of their day, their tentacles in every aspect of life in WhiteChapel. Property Owners had far more rights than the unfortunate folk living in their premises. The book "Albion's Fatal Tree" is an excellent look about property laws in the UK in the 18th Century, much of it applied into the 19th century and beyond.

http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Fatal-Tree-Society-Eighteenth-Century/dp/0394730852

The only modern analogy to Landlords in WhiteChapel is the mafia be it Russian, Italian or Martian.

Thanks Sunbury. I appreciate your support of my book and ideas. I should mention that my suspicion of a few of the landlords is not a theory I cooked up but something I was led to by a discovery of new facts. I hope it's something that can be discussed once more people have read the book.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Although like pretty much everyone else I have no idea if Tabram was a JtR victim or not I am leaning towards that she was not.

Reasons being the differences in the killings themselves and also (this might be lame to some) that the accepted C5 were all killed in and around the weekends (Fri, Sat, Sun) where Tabram was killed on a Tuesday.

I wouldn't say that's lame at all, but Tabram (and Smith) were killed on bank holidays, which is pretty much like a weekend.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sunbury]

There's a huge difference, which is what I learned in the course of my research. I had previously thought they were just businessmen. A handful of lodging house keepers in the East End essentially owned the place, including the police. They didn't just provide lodging, they ran the market on everything, including food, gambling, booze, etc. And they could have you smudged out. I think one or more of them had a hand in the Whitechapel murders. Perhaps not as the murderers themselves, but aiding and abetting them. They would have been in a unique position to do this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I am reading your book Tom and agree. The Landlords were very much lthe Mafia of their day, their tentacles in every aspect of life in WhiteChapel. Property Owners had far more rights than the unfortunate folk living in their premises. The book "Albion's Fatal Tree" is an excellent look about property laws in the UK in the 18th Century, much of it applied into the 19th century and beyond.

http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Fatal-Tree-Society-Eighteenth-Century/dp/0394730852

The only modern analogy to Landlords in WhiteChapel is the mafia be it Russian, Italian or Martian.

[Sunbury]

Which I am dieing to read.

Download the Kindle then
I am reading Tom's book and am totally engrossed in it.